How do I remove these stuck bolts? SOLVED

Post by **troy** » 03 Jun 2007 10:16

Gurus, I need your help with suggestions to remove these bolts. Even once removed, I have probably destroyed the threads in my bar clamp receiver. (I'm hoping the bolt material is softer than the receiver.)

Click to view photos

Here is the story:

Chapter 1
I bought a DR350. I wanted brush-guards. I asked around. I settled on a set from Enduro Engineering. They are great except the point where they need to bolt to the bar on the inside is exactly where the handlebar crossbar connects. I removed the crossbar. Since the bars are weakened, when the bike drops hard (which I do a lot), the bars bend.

Chapter 2
I got sick of buying new bars. Solution options seemed to be:

Find some handguards that would attach without needing to remove crossbar. Only way to know would be to start buying handguards--not a good option to me.

Install fat bars (far bars do not need a crossbar). Fat bar means installing clamp adapters to accommodate the fatter bar.

Install a custom solution such as the fancy Promoto Billet / Fastway F.I.T. system.

Chapter 3
I liked the looks and the apparent functionality of the F.I.T system as suggested by Jesse Kientz of http://www.kientech.com, so I bit the bullet and spent the money. The F.I.T. top clamp seemed to line up with the four bolt holes OK, but when I went to tighten the bolts, it seemed apparent the holes were just ever-so-slightly off. I thought being aluminum, I would just go ahead and crank it down and make it fit. BAD IDEA.

Once tightened down--which took considerable effort, I found out the fancy brushguard arms had their own problems! Installing them would require me to remove the front brake line slide guide thingie---which I'm not going to do.

I spoke to Jesse, and he agreed to take the stuff back and refund my money. Jesse really is a great guy, but unfortunately, this recommendation was a bad one.

Chapter 4
I purchased some simple "fat bar adapters" and a fat bar handlebar. The adapters have the added benefit of raising the bars slightly--which is something I want to make standing more comfortable on the little DR350.

When I went to remove the F.I.T. clamp, it was VERY hard to turn each of the four bolts. EVERY ONE OF THEM BROKE OFF! So now, as you can see in the photos, I have a predicament.

Btw, I checked on the cost of a new triple clamp, and the part is discontinued! When available, it was about $160! So I really, really hope I can get these bolts out AND salvage my triple clamp. I'm an idiot.

tim · Post by **tim** » 03 Jun 2007 10:39

Do you think you actually cross threaded them all? Seems improbable.

I'm sure others will have better suggestions but I myself would try a small pipe wrench and Aero Kroil first ( i have some its magic chit http://www.kanolabs.com)

If that doesnt work, to salvage the top triple cut the bolts off flush, drill and tap out new holes.

Open to better ideas

Post by **troy** » 03 Jun 2007 11:45

I'm looking for proven ideas. Thanks for your ideas, Tim. Can I come borrow your magic lubricant? I don't need much.

Would heat make the problem better or worse? Would I risk damaging my triple clamp with heat?

Any recommendations on a good machine shop that could do the work of drilling and tapping for me? I don't have a drill press.

Argh.

tim · Post by **tim** » 03 Jun 2007 12:54

what you dont like my ideas? no magic oil for you!

Seriously I've seen a pipe wrench do some impressive work with like 5 minutes to go before a race. maybe it was the adreneline, but give it a try, its not like you'r gonna do any (more) damage LOL!

and yes you can come borrow my magic oil

katbeanz · Post by **katbeanz** » 03 Jun 2007 13:45

I'd start with some vise grips locked down as tight as you can, a small ball pein hammer, tink tink, and kroil. I'm fresh out of kroil but I do have some marvel mystery super lubricant.
I guess the lower clamp is made right into the top triple tree? If you remove the tank maybe you can use some propane. Do you think the problem was with hole centers being off or the wrong pitch on the bolt threads?
I'm done mowing, gimme a call if you want and I'll come down with some supplies, Dean 816-668-8516

iyeager · Post by **iyeager** » 03 Jun 2007 13:48

If you need to go the machine shop route I can do it at work. I have access to just about any machine I could ever need, and if you added up the years of experience in our shop it would be well over 100.

Ian

On second thought, we also have an EDM wire machine at work that could probably burn those bolts right out, without touching the threads.

Post by **troy** » 03 Jun 2007 16:14

Tim, I reread my reply to your post, and it sounded like I was indicating your idea was not a "proven idea". Sorry! I didn't mean it that way.

My first thought was vice-grips and a hammer, but keep in mind I had the full bolt head to turn with a socket wrench, and I twisted the bolt off. Because of that, my feeling is I will not be able to get vice-grips tight enough, and even if I did, wouldn't I just twist the bolt off lower? For this reason, I feel I need a solution that will somehow relieve some of the friction making the bolt even slightly easier to turn. The Kroil idea is something.

Ian, it sounds like you will be my final solution if the home remedies fail. I'll have to remove the entire triple clamp to bring it to you.

I'm gonna call Dean to impose on him to bring his tools and know-how down. THANKS, Dean!

safiri · Post by **safiri** » 03 Jun 2007 16:18

My guess (as per your description of cranking down on them to get them in there): the bolts were the wrong size / thread pitch (perhaps SAE vs. Metric?)

Before you mess up the threads, measure the pitch and diameter if possible. Find out if they are correct or not.

Did you use any thread lock or similar on them? If so, heat is definitely the answer.

I would apply heat (propane, not oxy-acetylene, yet) to the bolt, then spray the junction btw the bolt and the triple with penetrating oil. the cooling will draw the lubricant into the threads. You will/might have some flames as well, go easy on the amount sprayed and the heat. Repeat. Heat once again, crank down some vice grips (really crank them down, good ViceGrips), and use the tapping method mentioned. You can either tap the ViceGrips while applying torque or tap the top of the bolt.

If that doesn't work ...

Repeat.

If it still doesn't work ...

EDIT: STOP. Take it to a machine shop via Ian.

Cut them off level with the triple using a grinding wheel, drill (with reverse rotation drill bits), use an easy out. Reverse rot. bits often alleviate the need for an easy out. Drilling releaves a lot of the tension / compression btw bolt and "nut".

tim · Post by **tim** » 03 Jun 2007 16:24

troy wrote:Tim, I reread my reply to your post, and it sounded like I was indicating your idea was not a "proven idea". Sorry! I didn't mean it that way.

np man I 'm just flipping ya some grief. do what safari said and if vice grips dont work try the pipe wrench. used correctly they increase the grip the harder you turn whereas vice grips just have whatever grip you dial into them.

Hayden · Post by **Hayden** » 03 Jun 2007 20:05

We all do bone head moves Troy. Try my brain fart today on for size. Got to cassody and needed a chain adjustment. So did the deed and was on my merry way. Got home tonight and was checking a funky rear end wobble that started not to far from home. (Thinking low tire) Nope! I had forgot to tighten the axle bolt in Cassody. 200 miles today on a loose axle bolt. Every other tooth on my rear sprocket was broke in half or the top tip was gone.

Good lord I amaze myself some times.

I believe that the adjuster bolt and nut were tight enough to not let the wheel move to much and this is why I didnt notice. Till almost home when they finally loosened that is. Anyway the bike was so packed with mud that I dont think I would have noticed anything amiss if I had looked at it during the day.

So new sprockets and chain all around for the XRR this month. I didnt have a 1000 miles on the front or rear sprocket.

T

katbeanz · Post by **katbeanz** » 03 Jun 2007 20:17

We got three of the four out, vise grips locked down as tight as humanly possible. The last one turned a little bit and broke off. We had Troy shopping for a name brand M8 X 1.25 tap since the ones Mike brought removed too much material from inside an 8mm nut.
We tried locking two nuts together, but about all that accomplished was strip the threads out of the nuts. My hands were getting tired, so we resorted to using a cheater pipe to lock the vise grips on.
I kind of wonder if the bolt supplier got some sae bolts mixed in with the metric ones, ran into that with some 3/8" flatheads at work a while back.
I think the plan is to regroup tuesday or so armed with cobalt bits. Ian, can you borrow a few bits overnight? Maybe start with 1/8" or 5/32" and I don't know what to drill for 8mm threads.
If we can't get the one out, I guess pulling the triple clamp is the only option. I think the other three can be chased out with a tap and longer bolts will be just fine. I tried drilling on it with the bits Troy had on hand and didn't get a single chip. It was a comfort to know EDM is there if all else fails. Dean

Mike, a couple links for you and Troy..

http://www.rickramsey.net/

http://www.cbtrailriders.org/

For Ouray http://www.narrowgauge.org

iyeager · Post by **iyeager** » 03 Jun 2007 21:50

I'll see what we have on-hand tomorrow.

Ian

safiri · Post by **safiri** » 03 Jun 2007 22:05

Hayden wrote:We all do bone head moves Troy. Try my brain fart today on for size. Got to cassody and needed a chain adjustment. So did the deed and was on my merry way. Got home tonight and was checking a funky rear end wobble that started not to far from home. (Thinking low tire) Nope! I had forgot to tighten the axle bolt in Cassody. 200 miles today on a loose axle bolt. Every other tooth on my rear sprocket was broke in half or the top tip was gone. Good lord I amaze myself some times.

I believe that the adjuster bolt and nut were tight enough to not let the wheel move to much and this is why I didnt notice. Till almost home when they finally loosened that is. Anyway the bike was so packed with mud that I dont think I would have noticed anything amiss if I had looked at it during the day.

So new sprockets and chain all around for the XRR this month. I didnt have a 1000 miles on the front or rear sprocket.

T

Hmm, I remember a few weeks ago reading about somebody named Hayden (not his real name) who didn't tighten all 4 lower triple / fork clamp bolts on this 640Adv and ended up with no lower triple / fork clamp bolts.

...

Hank Moody · Post by **Hank Moody** » 03 Jun 2007 22:08

I think you need some ball bearings and some 50 weight motor oil

safiri · Post by **safiri** » 03 Jun 2007 22:09

katbeanz wrote: Mike, a couple links for you and Troy..

http://www.rickramsey.net/

http://www.cbtrailriders.org/

For Ouray http://www.narrowgauge.org

Awesome! Thanks.

KC · Post by KC » 04 Jun 2007 00:05

I think the plan is to regroup tuesday or so armed with cobalt bits. Ian, can you borrow a few bits overnight? Maybe start with 1/8" or 5/32" and I don't know what to drill for 8mm threads

Here is a link to tap drill size charts. I have too many other things to remember so I just carry one in my drill box.
http://www.engineersedge.com/manufactur ... -chart.htm

Don't buy cheap IMPORTED bits!!!

The secret I have learned to drilling stainless is to run the drill motor at higher RPMs and use a cooling agent or your bit will get hot and dull too quickly.
When drilling cold rolled steel, use lower RPMs...the lower the better...coupled with max pressure.
Also, I use cordless drills all the time for screwing stuff and drilling into wood, plastic, aluminum, etc... I NEVER use a cordless when drilling into any metals of significant thickness. They just don't provide enough torque and you can't chuck the bits tight enough.

iyeager · Post by **iyeager** » 05 Jun 2007 17:20

I brought home a 3/16, a 7/32 and a 1/4. You need 'em?

Ian

Post by **troy** » 05 Jun 2007 19:09

Thanks for the info, KC. Thanks for bringing the bits home, Ian! At this point, it looks like I don't need them. Dean came over with some good quality bits, oil, and a tap. Dean is a human drill-press! He cut that sucker out clean and we tapped the 4 holes. I think if I get some longer bolts so I can use 100% of the threads, I'm back in business.

You guys are the salt of the earth! The dualsport community is the reason Kansas City feels like "home" to me.

Now I'm just waiting on my new throttle cables to arrive so I can put this bike back together and do at least SOME riding.

katbeanz · Post by **katbeanz** » 05 Jun 2007 19:23

iyeager wrote:I brought home a 3/16, a 7/32 and a 1/4. You need 'em?

Ian

No, sorry for the false alarm, we got it, and chased them all with a tap. I meant to go by Clark's and get a bottoming tap but the starter seemed to do well enough. I think my Lisle tap sockets are the best money I ever spent.
I borrowed a film canister of super duper drill and tap lube and used Troy's cordless drill at first. I think I ended up drilling 1/4" and had an "F" bit I didn't need. I got centered up dead on and was lucky.

The center to center on the new clamp was off and counterbored so not easily dealt with at home. His fatbar adapter has enlongated holes so it will fit just fine. I think he's going to get the longest 8mm button heads he can find for extra piece of mind.
Thanks Ian for the backup plan, and I don't make housecalls for just anybody.

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iyeager · Post by **iyeager** » 05 Jun 2007 20:36

No problem. And for future reference, no one at work ever pays for taps/bits/reamers/etc... so I have quite the selection at home, usually. Also, as long as the night crew doesn't need it, I can bring home any tool I can get in my truck, as long as it's back in the morning, so don't be afraid to ask.

Ian