It's all about the kids...should it be?

[troy]

Let me throw a grenade...In another thread...

...but I need to attend my [kid's] soccer game...

Based on my unscientific research of the last several years, this is the #1 excuse to miss a ride (or anything else). I like soccer. I can clearly see the benefits of involving children in team sports (exercise, teamwork, etc.), but I struggle to justify the ROI considering all that it costs the entire family. The intensity of athletic programs--even for 6,7,8 year olds--means the entire family sacrifices most weekends. A parent recently told me that their kids' coach scheduled practices during Spring Break--it was made clear that the kids were expected to attend those practices if they expected to play. Another week of sports practice or a family vacation to Bryce Canyon? Hmmm...

Sometimes you have to give up a good thing for something better.

It can be a difficult decision. Are there "non competitive" programs for kids where all the practices and games are on weeknights--leaving the weekends free for other family activities?

Here is a photo I snapped of a family from Saturday. Father, son, & daughter:



Two other families that I invited could not come because of kids athletic games. 10 years from now, what will those kids remember more? The soccer games or trail riding with dad? You can replace "trail riding" in that last sentence with camping, hiking, weekend fishing at the lake, building houses with Habitat for Humanity, building a lawn-mowing business, etc. I'm not suggesting every weekend should be about trail riding motorcycles, but I'm not sure that every weekend being about kids soccer games is the best investment of time either.

If the kid becomes a professional soccer player and buys you a new home with cash, well...those weekends you invested paid off! How many of the 50,000 kids playing soccer in Johnson County will continue to play soccer past middle school?

I've been a father for 7 years now, and it's been a struggle to balance how much my wife and I adjust our life to be about our daughter vs about our family. It does seem clear that in the "old days" (think turn of the century agriculture economy) kids were expected to figure out how to fit into the family life--to become productive members of the team. Today, it seems, we focus 99% of our time and effort around ensuring children are the focus. No wonder they feel so entitled.

See y'all on the soccer fields this weekend!

[Savage]

Interesting topic up for debate.

[troy]

Interesting topic up for debate.

A nice, neutral, safe comment, Quinton!

[gagnaou]

Nice post Troy, very interesting topic indeed!

Here is what my folks did... I played soccer until I was 9 or 10, soccer field was next door, we had practice once a week on wednesday so we walked there and that took no time from my folks. Games were on saturday afternoon, my Dad made it to some of those but not all by any means, he had to take care of the yard, the garden etc and keep the family car rolling.

When game days moved to sundays afternoon, I would still go to practice but did not go to the games as this was the "family" day. The day we were doing things as a family, visiting family, going on a hike, on an adventure, etc. all together...

Back then I did not understand it and hated it. But now looking back, I am glad they did because I do have great memories of those days spent as a family more so than if I would have gone one way and my siblings another etc...


Maybe, that is why I am riding a motorcycle now a day...

[bird man]

More than just an interesting topic....in my opinion.
I couldn't agree with you more Troy. This is something that I have noticed for several years and have been troubled by. Thanks for having the courage to speak up and address the topic so well.
Ok ...I have been neither neutral or safe

[troy]

A very good friend shared this with me in response to my post. It's not exactly the same message, but I find it resonates with the same heart that prompted my writing. Basically, the idea of something more--something greater. Giving up something good for something better.

My kids are taking a school sabbatical
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/11/living/sc ... ?hpt=hp_c3

[ajayhawkfan]

A child in sports (or the arts) and quality family time are not mutually exclusive.

Are they giving up something good for something better?? It sounds like you believe riding with a parent is better than spending with with them at a sporting event. That is a judgement call and each and every family and child is different.

In my opinion (and my opinion is always right) the key is balance between family time and children's activities. As a child my daughter loved soccer, TBall and BB because she was with her friends. Being at those events was not may idea of fun. However, taking a car full of happy, excited kids to and from the games and practice made it all worth while. Just thinking about it still makes me smile.

I also believe having my daughter play organized sports helped her mature. She learned at an early age that they won and lost as a team, how to get along with others, to improve you need to practice both individually and at a team, how to be a good sport, not everything is easy, you don't quit a team because you are counted on, etc. All of that is important in helping a child grow.

My daughter was also a very good ice skater. We spent a lot of time at a rink, my wife much more than me. The two of them traveled all over the mid west. Ice skating taught her to set goals. At a very young age she wanted to get her golds (the highest level a figure skater can achieve, the level you must pass to be in the Olympics) As she got a little older she knew she did not have the talent to be an Olympic skater but that was a goal she could accomplish. In 8th grade and into HS she quit for a while but in doing so she felt she let herself down and started skating again. By the time she was 17 she accomplished her goal. Because she passed her golds she had a career path at 17 if her wanted it. She could go to almost any rink in the country and show them how high she tested and be offered a job to teach skating.

Skating, being an individual sport, also taught her about loosing. No matter how hard you try you might fail. I believe that is a very valuable lesson. (Today so many kids are not allowed to fail because it might bruise their fragile ego.) She learned to get up, try again and don't give up on yourself. No matter how hard it is to see your daughter fail at something she worked so hard on it is very satisfying seeing her not give up, practice all the harder and succeed at her next attempt or the one after that.

All those lesson carry over into her adulthood and all are valuable.

We spent a lot of hours with her at practice and there were things we gave up for that yet I don't regret one moment. Besides the lessons she learned because of sport she also saw two loving parents being there to support something she enjoyed. Another valuable lesson.

[troy]

A child in sports (or the arts) and quality family time are not mutually exclusive.

The story you describe of your daughter's passion and skill for ice skating is not at all the same as the perceived notion that EVERY child should be playing soccer (at least in JoCo).

One of my neighbors has 2 children. The 12 year old daughter excels at gymnastics and trains hard and competes and, as I understand, does well. Her front yard cartwheels look flawless to me anyway. Their son, probably 8 years old, is a talented ice hockey player, and the family travels for out of town tournaments and such. They seem to enjoy that as a family. Both of the kids are at a skill and devotion level to take those skills long-term--possibly even as a career.

Another neighbors' 2 boys are active baseball players, and dad coaches the team. Mom is very supportive as well . This is obviously a family affair and a family commitment that they enjoy. Will these boys be pro baseball players? I don't think that is their ambition, but they are enjoying it now. They are building some good family memories as well as all the learning opportunities that come with team sports.

Eddie actually makes my point -- that the family enjoyed the activity enough to offset the sacrifices required. It should be more about the family than about the child. (In my opinion.)

If, instead, Eddie did look back and loathe all those times dragging his daughter to the ice rink. If mom had been forced to give up her tennis passion to support daughter's ice skating....and on top of it the only reason she did ice skating is because that's what everybody else does.....that seems sad to me.

All that said, I'm guessing most folks wouldn't be doing something "better" anyway. The choice is probably not "play soccer or climb Mt Everest". Rather it is probably "play soccer or sit around the house playing XBOX". Soccer is starting to look pretty good.

[Hank Moody]

Well Troy if the ride was on Saturday I could attend, just not Sunday because of the soccer game. What I didn't add that on Sunday after the soccer game I'm picking my son up for a boy scout camping trip. So I'm putting my children first and me second which means no riding for me.

My daughters soccer team is a recreational team and she has no aspirations of playing soccer beyond the recreational level, she just likes the game. My son likes scouting and hopefully within the next year he will attain his Eagle Scout rank.

My daughter and I are planning on going to Big Spring on Saturday for a afternoon of riding so I'm still going to do bonding with my daughter.

Life is a balance between family, community, and work commitments. One needs to enjoy life and do what they think is best for themselves and their families. After a recent over night stay in the hospital because of chest pain (non-cardiac related come to find out, thank God) I'm focusing on family. If that means going to something they enjoy and sacrificing my enjoyment so be it.

[troy]

First I need to say, Daryl, I hope you did not in any way see my post as a personal accusation directed at you. That post was neither directed at you nor an accusation. I am more asking questions than making statements. I want us to think. I know you personally--you are a great father! You are actively and positively engaged in raising your children in the right way. I love you, man!

Some of you can probably read between the lines--I've been going through a relatively serious mid-life "crisis" for going on 5 years now! I turn 43 this year. This quarrel in my soul has me questioning my actions, words, decisions, and direction. I need the sounding board of other people to help reign in my sometimes severely out-of-the-box thinking!

Giving up something good for something better

In John Piper's book, Desiring God, he proposes a ludicrous idea he calls "Christian Hedonism". Normally, hedonism is considered the antithesis of godliness. Merriam-Webster defines hedonism:

hedonism: the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the sole or chief good in life

Piper bases his "Christian Hedonism" idea on this quote from C.S. Lewis' sermon, The Weight of Glory:

If we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.

...something good for something better.

Piper unwraps this to explain how true pleasure is found in deep relationship with a God who loves and forgives us and in loving people. So while it is true there is pleasure in sex and money, etc., if we truly seek pleasure (hedonism), we'll seek God. Seeking pleasure is what we should be about. Are we too busy making mud pies to look up and see where true pleasure can be found?

If, like me, you often wonder what more you could be doing to make life better for yourself, your family, and those around you, maybe this thread resonates with you.

Man, it's getting deep in here. How about those Chiefs draft picks?

[MacWildcat]

Unfortunately, my wife and I are part of the unfortunate few that were not able to have children. Due to the work we do, we also witness the masses that never should have had children. This also gave us the perspective of many adoptive situations gone horribly wrong.
I have seen the parents that treat their children as pro athletes from the moment they walk....the kids lack the true love of the sport/music, etc. The kids don't know any better because this is the life they have lived..until they reach an age of maturity and realize what was imposed upon them from an early age.
I grew up at the other end of the spectrum. My folks had no interest in sports or support of me in sports. I tried sports but never felt the validation at home to really stick with it. I regret not taking full advantage of the opportunities sports offered me.
Simple balance and connectivity within the family should give parents the ability to know their children's aspirations.

Troy - you grew in God's country. This might be part of the reason for the mid-life crisis questions. You realize the differences in perspective and culture from a agriculture community and the wealth and entitlement of Jo Co. I try to retreat a couple times a year back to the farm country...back to the earth so to speak to "ground myself"..
Maybe the answer is escape from the heathen world of Jo Co, and back to the rural values that start west of the county border.

[bird man]

Well spoken MacWildcat , I have been wanting to respond to the conversation (Troy last post) but couldn't come up with quite what to say. You haven't said everything I have thought of but addressed the whole principle well I think.
Life is a balance .....choices of better and best for each.
It seems to me our society in general has made anything and everything their god , rather than the true God of the bible.
Troy "that" farm is still for sale.

[troy]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

So to bring this around to dualsport riding, it was exactly that desire to get back to rural values that fueled my early passion for dualsport riding. I recall my first day trips on my KLR 650 as I would ride 100 miles or so of gravel roads past crops, livestock, creeks, and family farms. Man it felt good to BREATHE again.

Not that I want to discourage folks from going to church, but I love this:

I'd rather be riding my motorcycle thinking about God than sitting in church thinking about riding my motorcycle.

For me, those early dualsport years were a form of spiritual and mental therapy. That fire still burns.

Buy the farm, bird man? Its easy work and easy money, right?

[gagnaou]

I think life is just like a dualsport tire. Depending on the riding you do a more or less aggressive tire will fit you better...

Think about it this way, any choice you make, or do not make actually has consequences positive and negative. Each one of us tries to deal with some consequences in order to maximize the overall experience. If I understand Troy's thinking properly, he is questioning when people by default adopt the statu quo to not rock the boat and do not want to open themselves to "better".

Now we are getting way out of motorcycling, but to reflect on bird's man comments, society puts in front of us so many choices, or launch people in pursuing wrong things, that sometimes people do not realize they can choose, or they decide not to choose and let things happen to them for the best or for the worst...

Last but not least as human we tend to believe that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, but when you get there you realize that it may not be as green as it looked from the outside... Point blank I have friends that would like to farm and others that would like an 8 ot 5 kind of job. So I always have to remind them of the other half of the empty glass that they do tend to completely overlook...


Fun, fun, fun!!!

[Savage]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

So to bring this around to dualsport riding, it was exactly that desire to get back to rural values that fueled my early passion for dualsport riding. I recall my first day trips on my KLR 650 as I would ride 100 miles or so of gravel roads past crops, livestock, creeks, and family farms. Man it felt good to BREATHE again.

Not that I want to discourage folks from going to church, but I love this:

I'd rather be riding my motorcycle thinking about God than sitting in church thinking about riding my motorcycle.

For me, those early dualsport years were a form of spiritual and mental therapy. That fire still burns.

Buy the farm, bird man? Its easy work and easy money, right?

That's hilarious that you said that, because I WAS going to be a smart @$$ and say that it sounds like your inner conscious is telling you that you need to sell your BMW and KTM and get back to your roots of riding a KLR. But I didn't want to upset anyone so I didn't say it. LOL Or course I'm just kidding.

I hear what you're saying though man, and I agree. I assume all of us have good intentions and mean the best.

Around here, and by that I mean in Kansas, dirt bike riding for kids or adults is not thought of as an upper class or even a middle class past time or sport. I bet if you were to survey the general public they would tend to think of it as a lower class thing. Why would anyone want to do that instead of (I'll just throw out some normal examples around here) play soccer, swim, ballet, baseball, football, etc. That is normal and that is socially acceptable to spend all your time, weekends and money traveling on around here.
Now if you look at, say Arizona, its socially acceptable for the whole family to ride dirt bikes, quads, etc.
I don't think I'm making a point, just throwing out some info. That's enough, time to go eat a homemade dinner, at the dinner table, with my family.

[MacWildcat]

Seen in an AdvRider signature wrote:I'd rather be riding my motorcycle thinking about God than sitting in church thinking about riding my motorcycle.

For years my Sunday morning routine has been a DS ride in the flint hills. The time I spend rejuvenates my soul and shows me God's hand not man's. I came to this Sunday routine after years of tolerating other folks attempting to force their beliefs and values on me in a formal church setting. My own quote - The biggest atrocities committed by humankind were done in the name of religion.
In the "good old days" growing up was all fire and brimstone sermons meant to make me aware of something new to feel guilty about.
I may switch up my routine with a hike instead of bike, but the purpose is the same; Recharge my soul to endure another week dealing with humankind.

[Creekside]

I 2d that Mac. Life is short, enjoy it now, for one day it will all be gone. There is at least 9 billion ways to peace & happiness, find your own way not someone else's, it won't work anyways.

Divide off of Skyline out by Eskridge is my new peaceful place

(Edit) River Front from Atchison to Lawrence is a blast with your so if its her Escape you plow into the mud holes! We had alot of fun today.

[safiri]

This has been an interesting thread to follow. Who would have thought I would find philosophy on RideForum.

I have faced a lot of the same questions (at the same time) as Troy: we both live in NE Johnson County, I teach high school in his neighborhood (The Blue Valley Bubble ... JoCo on steroids), we both have 7 year-old's, and we both started riding at the same time.

What is perhaps most interesting to me about this thread is that I share the philosophy of those who are obviously believers, and yet I am an agnostic. (agnosticism vs. atheism) [Please don't try to convert me ... I was raised Lutheran, active in church through high school, went to a Lutheran college, in my early 20's did 3 months of volunteer work with missionaries in Tanzania, etc.]

From Troy:

hedonism: the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the sole or chief good in life

true pleasure is found in deep relationship with a God those around us who loves and forgives us and in loving people. So while it is true there is pleasure in sex and money, etc., if we truly seek pleasure (hedonism), we'll seek God a deep relationship with those around us.

[For me, replace what is in bold with what is underlined.]

I cannot agree more with those quotes. If one is not happy then s/he is neither living life to the fullest nor allowing those around him/her to live their lives to the fullest. Of course this hedonism needs tempered with "first, do no harm" and "develop a deep relationship with those around us".

Think about the words "extrinsic" and "intrinsic". What I see as the evil in our society, that leads to lack of happiness, is that motivation for most is extrinsic: the locus of control is with others.

Financially this extrinsic locus of control means people buy things to impress those around them (big house in the right neighborhood, expensive cars, lots of "toys", fancy vacations), and then have to work longer hours in order to afford the payments. Thus less time is available to develop close relationships with those around them.

Socially this extrinsic locus is found in how our children "play". Activities are adult-driven: adults set the time & place, adults write & enforce the rules, adults decide who plays. Children are no longer creating, modifying, analyzing so as to make games fair.

"All things in moderation."
Be involved; be an active participant.

My son loves to play organized sports. I never did. That said, I don't just drop him off at practice, nor do I stand on the sidelines. I ask the dad-coach how I can help. I have learned more about football, basketball, and soccer in the past two years than in my first 47. And I am engaged with my son and those around him. That said, I also arrange for frequent play dates. Many in my back yard. I have a zipline, climbing wall, etc. I don't set any rules, other than "get along" and "safety third" . The kids create the games and rules.

I will finish with this:
Do you ask your child if they won, or do you ask if they played well and had a good time [hedonism]?
Do you ask your child if they scored goals, or do you ask if they passed the ball [connections with fellow man]?

[troy]

I truly appreciate this discourse. Thanks for the replies, all!

Things vs Experiences
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/0 ... ostpopular
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/0 ... 44056.html

[Rusty Jug]

Can I add a thought that my wife and I struggling with!


Thanks
What about vacation time, we do a week whatever my daughter wants and the second week we do what we want but she comes along for the fun which turns into a second daughter vacation !
But my wife and I feel to guilty
To leave her behind!
Anybody feel that way?