Liability insurance

[Rick]

The move to Kansas has led to us getting a different insurance agent. He is recommending liability coverage for our off-road only bikes to provide coverage off-premises (Perry, Randolph, Disney, etc.). Do you guys buy coverage for your off-road bikes?

Rick

[troy]

Until very recently, I never owned a purely off-road bike. For my off-road only 1999 300 EXC that is worth only $1500, I do not have any insurance. For my street legal 2007 KTM EXC 450 and 2012 KTM EXC 350, I have basic liability so I'm legal plus theft coverage. So I'm legal and if someone steals it, I can get my money to replace it.

If I went out and purchased a new or nearly-new off-road only bike (worth $3500 and up), I'd get a small theft protection policy only--no liability. If you do get talked into buying liability for an off-road only motorcycle, make sure it is actually going to cover you when you run into someone out on the trail and get sued. I doubt that is covered. Your agent just wants some more money!

[ajayhawkfan]

As Troy said, check what that liability covers. If it covers an accident you cause it might be valuable and I can't believe the cost would be much. It would be something I would seriously consider.

I have coverage on my 450 ATV that is on my farm. I have it just in case someone gets hurt while riding it.

You might ask about an umbrella policy. It might cover that and all your other property.

[ajayhawkfan]

The reason I would seriously consider getting insurance is because of stories like this:

This accident happened on a farm I have hunted many times over the years. http://www.kctv5.com/story/20178424/sha ... -atv-crash

One of my brothers know the family of the boy killed in this article. It happened on a farm very close to a farm he owns near LaCygne Power Plant. http://www.kctv5.com/story/14794602/pem ... 10-29-2010

If ever you lend a bike out and something happens you are most likely liable.


PS. I forgot to talk to my agent about the 230 I purchased. I'll be calling him tomorrow.

[Bob Morgan]

Insurance agents would sell you insurance against "hang nails" if they thought you would buy it.
I wouldn't do it unless there is some huge risk of being sued from an off road accident. It would always come down to your word against theirs, and the police would never be involved. You would stand a 50 50 chance of getting money out of them, so I doubt anyone would push the issue. Just my 2 cents.

[ajayhawkfan]

Insurance agents would sell you insurance against "hang nails" if they thought you would buy it.
I wouldn't do it unless there is some huge risk of being sued from an off road accident. It would always come down to your word against theirs, and the police would never be involved. You would stand a 50 50 chance of getting money out of them, so I doubt anyone would push the issue. Just my 2 cents.

Bob, a serious off road accident will have the police there. They were all over the accidents I mentioned above.

[Bob Morgan]

I think it's a wast of money. If you were insured for everything that could possibly go wrong you wouldn't have enough money left to do anything. Just what I believe.

[kendall_smith]

My personal policy is to always buy motorcycles that I have to take loans out on- that way you are forced by the bank to carry full-coverage insurance until the lien is paid in full. Usually, this time period covers the useable life of the vehicle and then you trade it in and start all over. (Dave Ramsey I am not!)

On a serious note, I agree with Troy's statements in the sense that the most important thing about insurance is theft coverage or loss from a fire or natural disaster. For the most part (especially on off-road oriented bikes) turning a crash in on insurance isn't worth it unless the bike is totaled. Years ago when I crashed my 01 FZ-1 as a 19-year-old dumbass, I just paid out of pocket (just short of $1000) to fix it myself even though I had full coverage insurance. I didn't want to even imagine what my premiums would have gone up to in that situation.

As for the liability insurance covering you in a lawsuit if you cause an accident, that couldn't hurt to have as long as it isn't cost prohibitive, and pertaining to liability covering you if someone you loaned your bike to gets injured- DON'T LOAN YOUR BIKE OUT!

[troy]

No offense to those in the insurance business, but you are scum-sucking, rancid weasel bait. I have a true hatred for the industry. I simply DO NOT TRUST that they will be there when I need it. I've heard too many stories (and have one of my own) proving that the big insurance company is NOT your friend when it comes time to pay.

I have a great relationship with my State Farm agent and recommend him highly -- Mike Parisi with State Farm. He offices on Armour St in North Kansas City. (Tell him I sent you in.) I consider Mike a friend. It is kind of comical when I call in for insurance on my vehicles. My request goes like this, "Mike, I need to get coverage on a vehicle I purchased. You know me--I want THE BARE MINIMUM ALLOWED BY LAW and the MAXIMUM DEDUCTIBLE ALLOWED BY LAW. I am never going to call you with a claim unless my vehicle is totalled or stolen." He chuckles and then talks me into a little more with, "OK, but for another $2.38/month you could raise your protection to ..."

I carry $2K deductibles on my vehicles. I seriously will never call with a claim unless it's at least over $4K of damage. I've not made any claims on any vehicles in over 16 years. Once the vehicle falls below $5K in value, I drop the comprehensive leaving bare minimum liability. Because motorcycles are easy to steal, I do carry a simple theft policy on them until they drop below $3K in value.

Insurance is a betting game. They make money by playing the odds--and they know them VERY well. The odds are created by putting every moron in a bucket and stirring the pot. I think my odds are better than the average moron, so I'm willing to place my own bet---that is why I have a high deductible. The money I save on premiums more than makes up for the $2K I might have to pay out someday.

Probably the story that pisses me off the most is from my own Pop. He bought a small farm with an old farm house and he had a nice metal barn built. For several decades he paid State Farm premiums without a single claim. Then one year, Wichita got hit by a massive hail storm. Just about EVERY home and business needed a new roof and many needed new windows and siding. The hail was so big it went right through vinyl siding. So my Pop, like 200,000 other people in the area, made a claim and got a new roof and siding. About 3 months later a huge wind storm hit the area and blew down his barn. Again, a well-documented event affecting thousands of people. State Farm built him a replacement barn, then immediately dropped his coverage because he was too high risk. WTF?!

They are like a casino that makes billions of dollars for years then as soon as you "win" a hand from the dealer, they ban you from the table. Suck it, big insurance companies. Do not get me started about health insurance!

[Rusty Jug]

I guess I'm the weird one, I carry full coverage on my CRF 450 with a $500 deduct. It was not much different in price, my main reason was to cover it for theft off the trailer and I bailed off the bike before it goes over the cliff I might get some money back! Lol! But yes I'm a over insurance person, my dad sold it for 40 years and just pounded in my head always be insured !!
Oh I don't disagree it's a racket

[Rick]

Wow. I didn't expect to create this firestorm of name calling and "big insurance company" hating. I understand insurance probably better than the average Rideforum reader. I was in the business for 19 years. I insure my road bikes fully but am willing to risk physical loss to my $2,000 dirt bikes. It's the liability coverage that I'm somewhat concerned about. Off road riding is inherantly dangerous and as such, a rider assumes some risk for bodily injury. If I were to get hurt at Perry, I know that I wouldn't be able to recoup my losses from the Corpes of Engineers because of that assumption of risk. But if I run over another rider as I almost did at Schoolcreek a couple years ago (I just knocked Stu over, barely touching him) I don't know if that rider's assumption of risk would protect me. Any lawyers on here that would care to address that question?

Rick

[ajayhawkfan]

I have a friend that is a lawyer and rides. I'm going to send him this thread.

[Bob Morgan]

No offense to those in the insurance business, but you are scum-sucking, rancid weasel bait.
Insurance is a betting game. They make money by playing the odds--and they know them VERY well. The odds are created by putting every moron in a bucket and stirring the pot. I think my odds are better than the average moron, so I'm willing to place my own bet---that is why I have a high deductible. The money I save on premiums more than makes up for the $2K I might have to pay out someday.


They are like a casino that makes billions of dollars for years then as soon as you "win" a hand from the dealer, they ban you from the table. Suck it, big insurance companies. Do not get me started about health insurance!

There is NO Possible Way I could have said it any better.



.

[troy]

I was in the business for 19 years.

Then you know that while the insurance companies aren't innocent angels, blame also lies with the life-sucking attorneys that have cultivated an entitlement society. (No offense to the life-sucking attorneys.) (It's OK if you preface your statement with "no offense...") One reason insurance costs so much--and the reason we even need insurance in some cases--is because of the likelihood that someone will sue us.

Rick, I hope your coverage is up because if/when I help you move into your new Topeka place it is possible I might twist an ankle or fall down the stairs while carrying your furniture. It would clearly be negligence on your part. I'd probably be entitled to at least half of your retirement, but we'll let our attorneys work that out. See you in court, sucker.

[kendall_smith]

Rick, I hope your coverage is up because if/when I help you move into your new Topeka place it is possible I might twist an ankle or fall down the stairs while carrying your furniture. It would clearly be negligence on your part. I'd probably be entitled to at least half of your retirement, but we'll let our attorneys work that out. See you in court, sucker.

I've never thought of this angle to weasel out of helping someone move! Well played, Troy!

[troy]

I have a friend that is a lawyer and rides. I'm going to send him this thread.

Of course your friend is not one of the "life-sucking attorneys" I referenced earlier. He's one of the good ones I'm sure.

[ajayhawkfan]

Free Lawyering Advice:

As a general rule, if I do something that causes injury to another person or to the property of another person, and if it is found by a court of law that I was negligent in doing that which I did, and that the person so injured did not materially contribute to his own injury (and some states have a jury assess specific percentages of blame), and unless it is found that the person so injured had effectively, legally, and completely assumed ALL risk for ANY injury which s/he might somehow suffer even if I WERE totally at fault, I will be found liable for the injuries so caused. Insurance is a tool which I – and others – use to reduce the direct economic cost to me of such liability by spreading the risk among others in the pool of insureds. It makes NO difference where I engaged in the NEGLIGENT (key word) conduct that got you hurt.



The answer posted by Rick is a good one.


Written just like a lawyer.

[ajayhawkfan]

For my Honda 230 dirt bike it costs $25 a year for liability. For the Yahama 450 ATV it is $32 a year. That is pretty cheap if I hurt someone.

[troy]

For my Honda 230 dirt bike it costs $25 a year for liability. For the Yahama 450 ATV it is $32 a year. That is pretty cheap if I hurt someone.

That is cheap, and it seems to "make sense" for peace of mind. Unfortunately, I don't get peace of mind because in the back of my mind, I seriously doubt the coverage will stick if I need it. Somehow those bastards will figure out a loop hole as to why I'm not covered.

"Oh, this occurred on a Saturday 2 days after a full moon? I'm sorry, but your policy clearly excludes this activity."

Or "Here's that $10K check, Mr. Customer. Oh by the way, your rate is now $500/year instead of $25/year. Of course this puts you in a higher risk category and affects the rate equally on all 6 of your vehicles."

Do I sound jaded?

[ajayhawkfan]

For my Honda 230 dirt bike it costs $25 a year for liability. For the Yahama 450 ATV it is $32 a year. That is pretty cheap if I hurt someone.

That is cheap, and it seems to "make sense" for peace of mind. Unfortunately, I don't get peace of mind because in the back of my mind, I seriously doubt the coverage will stick if I need it. Somehow those bastards will figure out a loop hole as to why I'm not covered.

"Oh, this occurred on a Saturday 2 days after a full moon? I'm sorry, but your policy clearly excludes this activity."

Or "Here's that $10K check, Mr. Customer. Oh by the way, your rate is now $500/year instead of $25/year. Of course this puts you in a higher risk category and affects the rate equally on all 6 of your vehicles."

Do I sound jaded?

If you hurt someone that will really cost you.