BEST OIL THREAD!!!

[Stu]

2-stroke oil -- the one that coats the goggles of the guy behind you with mung that he has to stop to wipe off. (Curado -- that old stir-fry oil you used to use is now waiting to slather itself all over you.)

4-stroke oil -- you can slip some Oxydol or Tide in there and get superior slippage. (Have you checked your oil lately, Bumper? Kept your garage locked?)

Stu

[curado]

Good:
Honda HP-2 (2-stroke oil) "100% synthetic" works great in the YZ and came recommended from the bike's previous owner. Usually mixed at 32:1.

Cheap but not for the track or brand new bikes:
Rotella (non energy conserving) for the trans on both bikes, and for the cylinder side of the honda...

Bad, very bad:
Walmart Supertech 2-stroke oil (lawn and garden variety). Something was very, very wrong. My bike ran like an underpowered weed eater. It was pretty bad stuff apparently. Always keep an extra bottle of HP-2 in the truck and you won't be faced with this dilemma!

[Hank Moody]

Back in the day when I had a IT 250e Yamaha I ran Bel-Ray because I loved the smell Do they even make Bel-Ray anymore???

For my Husky the factory recommends 10w-60. Well good luck finding that so I go with Mobil synthetic Gold cap, I thing it is 10w-50.

I can't believe it's snowing again and -1 for tonights low.

[Stu]

Tch. Tch. Bringing up bad weather you thread highjacker!!

Bad Oil: Curado's grease trap drippings "rendered" and poured in opponent's bikes.

Worse Oil: Anything recommended by the Bumper.

The Pits: Anything new with "Vastly Improved with immediate HP gains!" on the label (with, in tiny print, "Noticed by blathering idiots everywhere."

Stu

[Stu]

Bel-Ray

The last I noticed it was on the shelf wrapped with clear tape around a new crankshaft as a "package".

Stu

[Hayden]

Rotella 5w 40 Full syn diesel oil. Run it in everything from my 1990 Toyota Pickup and all the bikes. Just got tired of buying 4 kinds of oil. This makes it simple. Never heard of anything blowing up because it had good synthetic oil in it.


Hayden

[Hank Moody]

I just had to post this, now that is thinking with your dipstick, Jimmy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj5ms9PJDNY

[Stu]

Cute. Those Madison Ave. ad people know how to get attention and EXCLUDE all useful data that might confuse consumers.

I've been running 5W-40 Rotella T "synthetic" (by the new definition as of 3 years ago) in my 525, pickup, cars, lawn mower, generator as well. The drag racers are running the 15-40 Rotella T (even cheaper than the 5W-40). No one has blown up anything on it yet that I have heard of and it is $5/qt not $12~15/qt for unstated extra benefits. (I was using AGIP America's 10W-60 Racing Oil at $15/qt.)

I note that the new synthetics from the smaller blenders are producing 10w-30 range racing oils at higher prices. Most likely they are all great.

Stu

[safiri]

Lots of strong opinion out on the net, but very little data.

Several years ago I started sending oil samples off for analysis. Not every oil change, but enough to get a "baseline" for a specific oil in a specific vehicle at a specific change interval. About $25 per sample, but you then have data on viscosity (the "oil"), acidity capacity remaining (additives), metals (wear from engine parts), and water / ethylene glycol.

Running full synthetic, my results have consistently shown the oil I am pulling is still good. With that information I have tended to extend my change intervals, typically to twice the recommended interval. Remember: I am basing this extended interval on actual data showing the oil is still good AND I am running full synthetic (brand not mentioned on purpose, as all oils meet certain minimum standards).

[Stu]

Mike,

How long / far do you run your KTM 400 between change intervals for DS riding as well as hard trail use?

You are correct about oils meeting certain baseline standards with individual variants. I noted that when I downloaded spec sheets from various manufacturers. I would add that certain engines have oil types clearly specified. The BMW & Ferrari latest & greatest engines specify 10W-60 for example. KTM's 690 also specifies that grade. Most people I know running 640/690s use BG's very good 15w-50 or some other equivalent.

There seem to be lots of good choices out there. That is, on a long trip somewhere if you needed a change you could probably find something to substitute.

Stu

[safiri]

Mike,

How long / far do you run your KTM 400 between change intervals for DS riding as well as hard trail use?

There seem to be lots of good choices out there. That is, on a long trip somewhere if you needed a change you could probably find something to substitute.

Stu

With the RFS I have not tested the oil yet. Not sure it is worth the cost as the bike only holds 1.2 quarts. I tend to change the oil at about 20 hours (KTM calls for 15 hours but that is for racing use) but leave the filters for the 2nd or 3rd change. For instance, last March I spent a week in Moab, 5 days on the RFS and two on the MTB. In that 5 days I put on close to 30 hours (I don't recall how many exactly). I didn't worry about changing it while out there as it still looked good in the sight glass and the three of us spaced out to avoid dust. If I were to slip the clutch a lot, I would lessen the change interval.

With my 1994 Ford Explorer with 150k miles and my 1997 Subaru Legacy with 110k I have went to 10k oil change intervals4 or 5 years ago. In both cases oil analysis showed the oil was still good at that point. I am not going to go further, as 10k is easy to remember on the odometer. I won't mention my newer car as it is still under warranty.

[Savage]

Nice to have an oil thread with some real tests to back it up.
I've been using Mobil 1 syn. in my Pathfinder for years and change oil at 6k. I guess I could space it out further if I started commuting further. Right now it gets changed once to twice a year.

My DRZ came with 10w40 Amsoil, bumped it up to 20w50 Amsoil the next change and liked that better. Tried Lucas 10w50 syn and couldn't tell a difference. Last oil change I did towards the end of July then had my accident. I used 20w50 Mobil 1 syn (states it's for V twins but that doesn't mean anything).
I would guess I've put 150 miles or so on it so far and just yesterday I noticed how buttery smooth it feels when shifting back into neutral.

I change the oil on it around 750 miles, so I'll see how smooth it feels when it gets closer to that. If it starts feeling ratchety like the rest do later on, then I might go and switch all vehicles and bikes over to Rotella. It would be so much more convenient and I think I'd still come out cheaper if I changed oil at 500 miles on the Z.

[safiri]

The original time I brought this up was here:
http://www.rideforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=447

Here is a copy of my newer car oil after 10,000 miles. Castrol Syntec 5W-30. This included towing a trailer with 4 motorcycles to / from Moab.

2009 oil analysis.jpg (91.66 KiB) Viewed 2303 times

Car holds 6.5 quarts, BTW. I say this, because my thought process is that one of the main non-lube duties of oil is to absorb combustion products that blow-by the rings. As such, the amount of fuel, amount of oil, and quality of ring seal with cylinder affect the concentration of contaminants in your oil.

To fully interpret the report, download the User's Guide: http://www.oaitesting.com/g2047.pdf
This guide includes sources of the metals tested for: engine (rings, bearings, cylinders, etc), additives, multi source, ingested dirt, etc.

[safiri]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I dug up most of oil analysis reports.

I have a 1004 Ford Explorer, currently 159,000 miles, doesn't use oil. 5 qt sump. The test below was done on Castrol Syntec 5w-30 with 5000 miles when the unit had 141k.


This was on my F650, 2qt oil capacity, at 5k miles. Mobil 1 15w-50:


These are for my Toyota. Note that I probably waited a bit too long for the first change ... but nothing was considered "Excessive" and that the TBN was still greater than 2, which is the lab's "Excessive" cutoff standard (<2, change now!). Realize, too, that this was with Toyota factory oil. BTW, 6.5 qt sump.


Same car, after 10k on Castrol Syntec 5w-30



Lots of the "wear" on oil is caused by fuel or combustion contaminants from the fuel burning. As such, I use the following to compare vehicles. Of course this assumes the engines are all in good condition. A blown set of rings will mess this up.

(10,000 miles) / (vehicle mpg) / (oil capacity) = contaminants / qt after 10k miles.
10k / mpg give gallons of fuel. That / qts oil gives gallons fuel per qt oil.

Explorer: 10000 / 17 / 5 = 118

F650: 10000 / 55 / 2 = 91
so the F650 oil should have less fuel related contaminants than the Explorer. However, it does have a wet clutch.

Toyota: 10000/ 18 / 6.5 = 85
All things being equal, the Toyota should be able to go 1.3x (118/91) further than the Explorer with the same contamination level.

LC4 (I couldn't find the test I did on it): 10000 / 45 / 2 = 111
Note that I did not go 10k on the LC4 oil ... it got abused in the dirt.)

RFS (not tested): 10000 / 45 / 1.2 = 185
With the small oil capacity, and the dirt abuse, change more often.

Note that BMW cars have a large sump (8 qts?) and often go nearly 15k miles before the oil change indicator lights up. BMW uses fuel used to determine this. They may be a bit fancier now with number of cold starts, etc. but the baseline for oil change interval was the ECM keeping a sum total of the time the injectors were squirting fuel.

Off to get some work done.

[Savage]

It's getting about that time of year to bump up an oil thread. (j/k)

However I was buying Mobil 1 synthetic for my suv today and see that they now have alot of different "types" of M1 Syn. I stuck with the "regular" for my ride but I did notice on the back of the M1 Syn for Higher mileage vehicles it did not have the energy conserving label on it (similar to Rot. T).

So I'm wondering if it would be safe to use in a wet clutch???

[Stu]

If it is JASO rated, or (I think) Euro 3, it should be good for wet clutch applications. The meaningful criteria is the JASO one but I don't remember what the latest iteration of that oil standard is.

Stu

[safiri]

It's getting about that time of year to bump up an oil thread. (j/k)

However I was buying Mobil 1 synthetic for my suv today and see that they now have alot of different "types" of M1 Syn. I stuck with the "regular" for my ride but I did notice on the back of the M1 Syn for Higher mileage vehicles it did not have the energy conserving label on it (similar to Rot. T).

So I'm wondering if it would be safe to use in a wet clutch???

You had to bump it, didn't you?!?!

With some information from a friend that I ride with, and that races Porches, I have switched from Castrol Syntec 5w-50 to Mobil 1 15w-50. Reason, you ask ... Mobil has kept 1.5x the amount of ZDDP in their 15w-50 as in other oils. The Z stands for zinc and my understanding is the zinc coats metal surfaces inside the engine and keeps the metal to metal contact surfaces from wearing if they lose their oil film. Many of his Porsche racing buds run that oil because of the added protection. With that in mind, that is what I am running in my RFS. But I wouldn't hesitate to go back to Castrol (which used to be $1 cheaper per quart, but no more).

As to clutch slip ... I have been running car oils in all of my motorcycles for years with no issues. The F650 (30k miles), LC4 (15k), and RFS (5k) all have wet clutches and none have, or have had, any issues.

For some reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate

This one shows how all of the Mobil 1 oils compare:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot ... _Guide.pdf
(My guess is they are calling it "SUV" to make sales ... is it really any better?)

[Savage]

That's funny that you mention that about your porsche buds and the zinc. I was just reading about that on TT but alot of the porsche guys were quitting M1 because they changed their formula (no zinc).

I don't know...

I do know that my DRZ likes 20w-50 M1 MC oil though.
My bikes were a bear to start last year thru our long deep freeze so I got 5w-40 Rotella synthetic to help the cold starts this year.

[Savage]

OK I'm only responding back because my bikes and me do NOT like the Rotella 5W Syn. My DRZ has been shifting like crap - hard to find neutral AND the clutch plates have been slipping when ripping on it in 5th gear.

I thought it would be fine in the tame KLX300 but I rode it yesterday and it's shifting like dogcrap too. It's coming out tomorrow. Ticks me off because it isn't cheap and I bet I haven't put 250 miles on it.

Guess my bikes will have molasses in them again this winter and I'll heat them up with the propane heater when needed.

[Stu]

Thread resurrection time....

The shifting and finding neutral when stopped is a common problem with lighter oils in race bikes (in my RFS with Rotella T's 5W-40). The engine builders in CA still use this oil in some cases but some recommend Motul's 15W-50. I'm using the 5W-40 Rotella in the winter and going to the Motul when it warms up. A year ago in 115 degree heat on the White Rim trail with the Rotella I had no problems with lubrication, and no trouble shifting or finding neutral. I was short shifting and only had to really make it pull in the deep sand at the end (going clockwise). I do run the HT-Racing oil cooler so I have 1.7 liters of oil and it runs about 30 degrees cooler.

My cold weather starting is a fuel/air ratio problem, not the oil. If I can get enough fuel in the mix my 525 starts, when very cold, in a few kicks.

Stu