I use the MapSource software as well. When I plot a route with the version I have, (v7.0), it draws the line right on top of the roads. Routes I have gotten from other folks, draw a direct line, point to point. Dave Hemphill was very confused using my MapSource to built routes in Colorado last summer because of this.
Any thoughts?
Route Building 101
What Troy said.
Here is something to try with G-MS: Create a route with just a start and end point. Now switch to Arrow/Pointer mode. Click on the route. It should turn yellow. Now click on the route at some midpoint. Drag the mouse. The route should follow the mouse. Click again to release. This creates an additional route point. Repeat to modify your route. Clicking on a point allows you to move that point. Clicking on the endpoint allows you to extend the route. Caution: G-MS sometimes gives screwy results. Just hang with it, experiment, and you will figure out what I am describing.
As to number of points ... On my 60CS the route is displayed as a purple, wide line. When I come to an intersection I want that purple line to point me in the right direction.
Thus, when I create a route, I usually put in enough points so that the purple line will point me in the correct direction. This seems superfluous, until you get to y-intersections (less than 90o angles) and the roads make twists and turns after they split. If you just mark turns from one road to another, you can have the puple line lead you onto the wrong road.
I do not attempt to keep the purple line "on the road" if no confusion will exist. Thus, if part of my route takes a gravel road for 5 miles straight north, I typically won't put points in-between. The same for switchback, so long as no other roads meet the one I want to take.
Some folks are against using a GPS. I see their point, if you never deviate from your planned route. However, if you keep an open mind, and willingness to explore side roads that you pass by, then the GPS allows you to cover the ground in-between much more efficiently. With larger groups, stopping and starting to inspect maps and make route decisions can get very slowing. With two or three, the effect is much less.
Aside: I took a friend on a ride. I led with a GPS. He is very good with direction. I had him 180o off within a few miles b/c I didn't have to pause at each intersection, inspect my maps (which I carry too), and decide which way to turn. Thus the preplanning allowed us to enjoy a lot more riding.
Here is something to try with G-MS: Create a route with just a start and end point. Now switch to Arrow/Pointer mode. Click on the route. It should turn yellow. Now click on the route at some midpoint. Drag the mouse. The route should follow the mouse. Click again to release. This creates an additional route point. Repeat to modify your route. Clicking on a point allows you to move that point. Clicking on the endpoint allows you to extend the route. Caution: G-MS sometimes gives screwy results. Just hang with it, experiment, and you will figure out what I am describing.
As to number of points ... On my 60CS the route is displayed as a purple, wide line. When I come to an intersection I want that purple line to point me in the right direction.
Thus, when I create a route, I usually put in enough points so that the purple line will point me in the correct direction. This seems superfluous, until you get to y-intersections (less than 90o angles) and the roads make twists and turns after they split. If you just mark turns from one road to another, you can have the puple line lead you onto the wrong road.
I do not attempt to keep the purple line "on the road" if no confusion will exist. Thus, if part of my route takes a gravel road for 5 miles straight north, I typically won't put points in-between. The same for switchback, so long as no other roads meet the one I want to take.
Some folks are against using a GPS. I see their point, if you never deviate from your planned route. However, if you keep an open mind, and willingness to explore side roads that you pass by, then the GPS allows you to cover the ground in-between much more efficiently. With larger groups, stopping and starting to inspect maps and make route decisions can get very slowing. With two or three, the effect is much less.
Aside: I took a friend on a ride. I led with a GPS. He is very good with direction. I had him 180o off within a few miles b/c I didn't have to pause at each intersection, inspect my maps (which I carry too), and decide which way to turn. Thus the preplanning allowed us to enjoy a lot more riding.
Safiri Mike
Current: 01 F650-GSDakar-RWB; 02 EXC-453 (orig. MXC 400); 05 EXC-450 ; 13 CRF-250L; 17 CRF-125FB; 06 KLX-110 (132); 02 TTR-125L
Gone and missed (but no regrets): 01 LC4E-400-Grey
Gone and not missed: 73 AT3, 85 K100RS
Current: 01 F650-GSDakar-RWB; 02 EXC-453 (orig. MXC 400); 05 EXC-450 ; 13 CRF-250L; 17 CRF-125FB; 06 KLX-110 (132); 02 TTR-125L
Gone and missed (but no regrets): 01 LC4E-400-Grey
Gone and not missed: 73 AT3, 85 K100RS
Although safiri was my route building mentor, our methods and tools are not exactly the same. We both start, however, with the same goal---to find the most curves, the most hills, the most stream crossings, and the most rugged roads we can find in the general area we plan to explore.
Sometimes I know a general area or direction I want to explore, and then look for roads in that area. Sometimes I don't know where I want to explore, so I start looking at maps and satellite images looking for possible target areas based on lakes, rivers, tree coverage, small towns, landmarks, or anything that looks interesting.
Sometimes there is a specific place to visit or thing to see that dictates the route's general area.
If the route is more than 100 miles or so, you may need to force the route to go through a small town so you can get gas. For me, though, I really enjoy the small towns, so I like to have my routes go through them anyway.
When I first started building routes, I relied heavily on paper maps---my Delorme map books, etc. Now days, I almost never use paper maps anymore. In fact, I almost exclusively use the free, browser-based Route Planner at http://www.marengo-ltd.com/map/. This tool is based on Google Maps. You may ask yourself, "how could a free, browser-based route tool be better than the commercial, professional MapSource software from Garmin?" EXCELLENT QUESTION! I'd like to ask Garmin! I think this is more an indication of how lousy the MapSource interface is rather than how great the Marengo tool is. I find the MapSource interface to be slow and cumbersome. Marengo on the other hand is fast and intuitive. Marengo has the HUGE advantage that with a single click, you can also view the satellite images of the area. I find this extremely helpful when I want to know "does that road really go through?" (In all map products, sometimes road map lines connect where the actual roads do not! Satellite images can clear that up.)
One thing (of many) safiri is better at than me is reading topo maps--you know, the maps with all the wavy lines indicating elevation. He is able to use this information to find the peaks and valleys and other interesting terrain features. (He and I both recommend Garmin's US TOPO maps product.) I need to get better at this, but what I do right now is use the satellite images (available right in the Marengo tool). I look for rivers and heavy tree coverage to guess where the valleys and interesting spots are.
The only time I use another map tool is when building routes in Kansas. The fact that the KS County PDF maps show the actual road surface type makes them fantastic. They even have an indicator that makes it easy to spot the "minimum maintenance" roads--which are a favorite of mine for dualsport adventure. These PDF maps also print relatively well on 8.5x11 paper for folding into your map sleeve or tank bag--in case you want additional resources during the adventure or if you do not have a GPS unit.
So I build my route in the Margengo tool. When complete, the tool opens a window with the route in GPX text format. I copy and paste this into a new file on my computer. Then I can open this file in MapSource---yes, with a Garmin GPS, you HAVE to use MapSource to actually interface your GPS to load the route. It's also the only tool to load the maps into your unit...and it does a very fine job of this.
Speaking of getting the actual maps into your GPS unit....some of you may not know but with MapSource, once you have a route--whether imported from a GPX, a GDB, or built right in MapSource, you can use the "select maps around route" feature to grab only the maps you need. It's also easy to just use the map selector tool and highlight a large rectangle around your route. Either way, you want to make sure your GPS Unit has the detailed maps loaded for the area you'll be riding.
Reasons to use one map tool over another usually revolve around price, detail, accuracy, and ease of use. I will say that Garmin's US TOPO maps are better than Google Maps when it comes to trails. However, based on my Ozarks trail experience, Garmin's trail data is severely lacking and the ones that do show are many times wrong. I'm really not faulting them for this--it seems impossible to keep up with all those trails. (Mike, how about the Rocky Mountain trails? Garmin's maps have a lot of those accurately marked?)
Something that I do for fun---not actually part of my route building--is load the GPX file in Google Earth. http://www.google.com/earth/ (You need the Plus or Pro account to do this...Plus is $20/year.) It can be fun to view the route in Google Earth and "fly" through the route.
I hope this discussion and the experiences shared are helpful to some of you.
Sometimes I know a general area or direction I want to explore, and then look for roads in that area. Sometimes I don't know where I want to explore, so I start looking at maps and satellite images looking for possible target areas based on lakes, rivers, tree coverage, small towns, landmarks, or anything that looks interesting.
Sometimes there is a specific place to visit or thing to see that dictates the route's general area.
If the route is more than 100 miles or so, you may need to force the route to go through a small town so you can get gas. For me, though, I really enjoy the small towns, so I like to have my routes go through them anyway.
When I first started building routes, I relied heavily on paper maps---my Delorme map books, etc. Now days, I almost never use paper maps anymore. In fact, I almost exclusively use the free, browser-based Route Planner at http://www.marengo-ltd.com/map/. This tool is based on Google Maps. You may ask yourself, "how could a free, browser-based route tool be better than the commercial, professional MapSource software from Garmin?" EXCELLENT QUESTION! I'd like to ask Garmin! I think this is more an indication of how lousy the MapSource interface is rather than how great the Marengo tool is. I find the MapSource interface to be slow and cumbersome. Marengo on the other hand is fast and intuitive. Marengo has the HUGE advantage that with a single click, you can also view the satellite images of the area. I find this extremely helpful when I want to know "does that road really go through?" (In all map products, sometimes road map lines connect where the actual roads do not! Satellite images can clear that up.)
One thing (of many) safiri is better at than me is reading topo maps--you know, the maps with all the wavy lines indicating elevation. He is able to use this information to find the peaks and valleys and other interesting terrain features. (He and I both recommend Garmin's US TOPO maps product.) I need to get better at this, but what I do right now is use the satellite images (available right in the Marengo tool). I look for rivers and heavy tree coverage to guess where the valleys and interesting spots are.
The only time I use another map tool is when building routes in Kansas. The fact that the KS County PDF maps show the actual road surface type makes them fantastic. They even have an indicator that makes it easy to spot the "minimum maintenance" roads--which are a favorite of mine for dualsport adventure. These PDF maps also print relatively well on 8.5x11 paper for folding into your map sleeve or tank bag--in case you want additional resources during the adventure or if you do not have a GPS unit.
So I build my route in the Margengo tool. When complete, the tool opens a window with the route in GPX text format. I copy and paste this into a new file on my computer. Then I can open this file in MapSource---yes, with a Garmin GPS, you HAVE to use MapSource to actually interface your GPS to load the route. It's also the only tool to load the maps into your unit...and it does a very fine job of this.
Speaking of getting the actual maps into your GPS unit....some of you may not know but with MapSource, once you have a route--whether imported from a GPX, a GDB, or built right in MapSource, you can use the "select maps around route" feature to grab only the maps you need. It's also easy to just use the map selector tool and highlight a large rectangle around your route. Either way, you want to make sure your GPS Unit has the detailed maps loaded for the area you'll be riding.
Reasons to use one map tool over another usually revolve around price, detail, accuracy, and ease of use. I will say that Garmin's US TOPO maps are better than Google Maps when it comes to trails. However, based on my Ozarks trail experience, Garmin's trail data is severely lacking and the ones that do show are many times wrong. I'm really not faulting them for this--it seems impossible to keep up with all those trails. (Mike, how about the Rocky Mountain trails? Garmin's maps have a lot of those accurately marked?)
Something that I do for fun---not actually part of my route building--is load the GPX file in Google Earth. http://www.google.com/earth/ (You need the Plus or Pro account to do this...Plus is $20/year.) It can be fun to view the route in Google Earth and "fly" through the route.
I hope this discussion and the experiences shared are helpful to some of you.
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ajayhawkfan
- Posts: 1451
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- Location: Kansas City, MO
- Contact:
You guys are good!
You can let MapSourse do the routing between waypoints it is quick and easy. In mapsourse City Navigator go to "Edit", "Preferences" and then the "Routing" tab. In that tab there is a "Road Selection" box. By moving it to the far left the program will do a good of keeping you on gravel and low maintaince roads when it solves the route. After solving the route you can then open MapSourse topo to see the route on topo maps.
The draw back is you have to go back to City Navigator to make any changes on the route because you can't solve in topo.
I hope that helps someone a little.
You can let MapSourse do the routing between waypoints it is quick and easy. In mapsourse City Navigator go to "Edit", "Preferences" and then the "Routing" tab. In that tab there is a "Road Selection" box. By moving it to the far left the program will do a good of keeping you on gravel and low maintaince roads when it solves the route. After solving the route you can then open MapSourse topo to see the route on topo maps.
The draw back is you have to go back to City Navigator to make any changes on the route because you can't solve in topo.
I hope that helps someone a little.
Rock Chalk Jayhawk, KU!!!
R1200 GS Adventure '15
R1200 GS Adventure '15
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ajayhawkfan
- Posts: 1451
- Joined: 25 Jan 2007 18:51
- Photo URL: http://picasaweb.google.com/ajayhawkfan
- Location: Kansas City, MO
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Troy, Thanks for the http://www.marengo-ltd.com/map/ site. I have been playing with it instead of working.
Rock Chalk Jayhawk, KU!!!
R1200 GS Adventure '15
R1200 GS Adventure '15
Well, using the Edit, Preferences, Routing tap on my Map Source, I was able to change the routing from, Auto-routing to Direct Routing. Now the routing is point to point instead of right on top of the roads. Of course, routing right on the roads would help at those "Y" intersections Mike spoke of.....
See Troy, we learning while at work
See Troy, we learning while at work
Kevin
07 FLHT
07 FLHT
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tim
- Posts: 107
- Joined: 01 Dec 2006 21:02
- Photo URL: http://
- Location: Liberty (Center of the DS universe)
(a) reason why some should not use a GPS 
reminds me of the Monday ride and stop at bridge out sign...
http://techdirt.com/articles/20070221/090448.shtml
I subscribe and live by comment #10:
"Personally I just get on the road and follow the first guy that looks like he knows where he's going and figure it can't be too far from where I'm headed."
That would be Troy
reminds me of the Monday ride and stop at bridge out sign...
http://techdirt.com/articles/20070221/090448.shtml
I subscribe and live by comment #10:
"Personally I just get on the road and follow the first guy that looks like he knows where he's going and figure it can't be too far from where I'm headed."
That would be Troy
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ajayhawkfan
- Posts: 1451
- Joined: 25 Jan 2007 18:51
- Photo URL: http://picasaweb.google.com/ajayhawkfan
- Location: Kansas City, MO
- Contact:
I really like it. It's just one guy (in London I think) and he runs it off a server in his house--or he did when I last chatted with him. Safiri showed the link to me. The route tool is popular in some bicycling circles and I think Safiri heard about it through his cycling circles.ajayhawkfan wrote:Troy, Thanks for the http://www.marengo-ltd.com/map/ site. I have been playing with it instead of working.
Finally have a chance after the students left to play with Marengo ... I am sold (on a free product). Should have messed with it a while ago.
I am still hooked on paper copies of maps in front of me for the big picture. With Marengo, when you zoom out, the secondary and tertiary roads are not shown.
The people that follow a GPS blindly are being eliminated from the gene pool ... Darwinian selection.
I am still hooked on paper copies of maps in front of me for the big picture. With Marengo, when you zoom out, the secondary and tertiary roads are not shown.
The people that follow a GPS blindly are being eliminated from the gene pool ... Darwinian selection.
Safiri Mike
Current: 01 F650-GSDakar-RWB; 02 EXC-453 (orig. MXC 400); 05 EXC-450 ; 13 CRF-250L; 17 CRF-125FB; 06 KLX-110 (132); 02 TTR-125L
Gone and missed (but no regrets): 01 LC4E-400-Grey
Gone and not missed: 73 AT3, 85 K100RS
Current: 01 F650-GSDakar-RWB; 02 EXC-453 (orig. MXC 400); 05 EXC-450 ; 13 CRF-250L; 17 CRF-125FB; 06 KLX-110 (132); 02 TTR-125L
Gone and missed (but no regrets): 01 LC4E-400-Grey
Gone and not missed: 73 AT3, 85 K100RS
Thanks for all the tips! Those sounds like some good features to check out next time I just need to get from point A to point B. I did not know you could tweak the settings to get the software to recommend a dirt road route--that is cool.ajayhawkfan wrote:Another nice feature under the "Routing" tab is the "Try to Avoid" area click "advanced" and you can avoid an area or specific roads.
Also, be sure you do not have checked un-paved roads.
Having not used these auto-route features, my assumption is that I probably would not find them useful for most of my dualsport route planning since my routes are usually in no way the most efficient route from point A to point B. My routes zig and zag and backtrack in an effort to hit all the "best" roads in the general area.
I guess some will be leaders and others will be followers.tim quoting someone else wrote:"Personally I just get on the road and follow the first guy that looks like he knows where he's going and figure it can't be too far from where I'm headed."
Tim, you weren't following me when the road got nasty--covered in ice and snow. Instead, you zipped around me and hit it like the monster-rider that you are.
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MacWildcat
- Posts: 412
- Joined: 30 Nov 2006 18:59
- Photo URL: http://
- Location: Manhattan, Kansas
Hi Troy. I'm still using Mapsource Roads and Rec, I think you can pick it up for $0.99 on EBay! Still works good though the software is outdated (99').
I'm still a little fuzzy about the Marengo software. I tried a couple of times and couldn't quite get it right. Here's my Marengo for Dummies questions;
1) Will the Garmin software accept a Marengo .gpx file?
2) If I convert a Garmin route file to .gpx, can persons with software other than Garmin Mapsource (Magellan?) download my file into their software?
When I build routes, I also use the KDOT county maps. I trace the route onto a Delorme map with a highlighter. Then I use my Mapsource software to create a point-to-point route.
I tried using the Delorme Gazetteer as a exclusive route tool. Found quite a few of the roads shown on the Delorme maps no longer exist. I talked with a county engineer. He said the Delorme Gazetteer is based off of county maps from the 1950's. Especially here in Flint Hills, alot of the roads are now abandoned or private property. It's sounds like a convoluted process, but the end results seem worth it. If the guy leading a group has a GPS route to follow, you sure cover a route quicker. I still carry a paper version of my route just in case the GPS glitches (been there, done that - dead batteries).
I'm still licking my chops for a chance to ride the Atchison to White Cloud route. For now I need a couple of hundred easy miles to break in my engine overhaul. I'll probably start posting some rides beginning in April. Just gearing up for the Hillybilly Tour at the moment
I'm still a little fuzzy about the Marengo software. I tried a couple of times and couldn't quite get it right. Here's my Marengo for Dummies questions;
1) Will the Garmin software accept a Marengo .gpx file?
2) If I convert a Garmin route file to .gpx, can persons with software other than Garmin Mapsource (Magellan?) download my file into their software?
When I build routes, I also use the KDOT county maps. I trace the route onto a Delorme map with a highlighter. Then I use my Mapsource software to create a point-to-point route.
I tried using the Delorme Gazetteer as a exclusive route tool. Found quite a few of the roads shown on the Delorme maps no longer exist. I talked with a county engineer. He said the Delorme Gazetteer is based off of county maps from the 1950's. Especially here in Flint Hills, alot of the roads are now abandoned or private property. It's sounds like a convoluted process, but the end results seem worth it. If the guy leading a group has a GPS route to follow, you sure cover a route quicker. I still carry a paper version of my route just in case the GPS glitches (been there, done that - dead batteries).
I'm still licking my chops for a chance to ride the Atchison to White Cloud route. For now I need a couple of hundred easy miles to break in my engine overhaul. I'll probably start posting some rides beginning in April. Just gearing up for the Hillybilly Tour at the moment
""She'll never understand" (the love of motorcycles)
KLX435sr
Been there, done that: Husqvarna TE450, KTM 400EXC, TS400, TM250, XL250R, DR350, DR650, Weestrom, and 500 Interceptor.
KLX435sr
Been there, done that: Husqvarna TE450, KTM 400EXC, TS400, TM250, XL250R, DR350, DR650, Weestrom, and 500 Interceptor.
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Jeff620RXC
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 30 Nov 2006 20:24
- Photo URL: http://
- Location: Hutchinson, KS
1. I suppose that depends on your Garmin software. I can only speak to the version I use (MapSource v6.11.3). I don't know about your older software...are there updates available for it? For the current versions of Garmin's MapSource, the answer is Yes. MapSource can both open and save as GPX.MacWildcat wrote:1) Will the Garmin software accept a Marengo .gpx file?
2) If I convert a Garmin route file to .gpx, can persons with software other than Garmin Mapsource (Magellan?) download my file into their software?
2. GPX is the "GPS Exchange Format" and is meant to be a generic XML format that is interchangeable between all the various systems. Unfortunately, it is still a relatively new format so not all software support it yet as I understand. I guess the answer is, GPX is more likely to work between various units than any other format. All new versions of GPS software should support GPX.
So first find out if your software and unit will support GPX. Perhaps there are free updates that will give you this feature. If not, then let me tell you about a free tool to convert from almost ANY GPS format to any other format. It is called GPSBabel, and is a free command-line utility. However, using it can be difficult for non-techies. So I thought I'd write a handy web-interface to the program, but somebody beat me to it---and it looks good. Do all your GPS file conversions at:
http://gpsvisualizer.com/gpsbabel/
I'm curious, does the City Nav product have all the backroads in it? It is my understanding that it has, of course, great coverage of cities and highways, but did not have the dirt roads. At safiri's recommendation, I purchased Garmin's US TOPO product when I got my 60CS. It definitely gives me everything I need, but it does not have any POI data for cities and is even lacking a lot of street names.Jeff620RXC wrote:I have the City Nav 8.
Of course Garmin could just offer a single map product that has ALL the detail and allow you to enable the stuff you want, but where is the profit in that for the shareholders?
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Jeff620RXC
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 30 Nov 2006 20:24
- Photo URL: http://
- Location: Hutchinson, KS
ajayhawkfan,
I was trying to checkout some of your tips, but apparently I don't have the same software you do. You mention "City Navigator" and a Routing tab. I don't have a product named City Navigator. The installed product I have calls itself simply "MapSource" although I swear the CD is titled "Trip & Waypoint Manager". I dug around and found that I do not have the Routing tab or the features you explained...they sound like good features.
I was trying to checkout some of your tips, but apparently I don't have the same software you do. You mention "City Navigator" and a Routing tab. I don't have a product named City Navigator. The installed product I have calls itself simply "MapSource" although I swear the CD is titled "Trip & Waypoint Manager". I dug around and found that I do not have the Routing tab or the features you explained...they sound like good features.
Ok, so it's my fault!troy wrote:At safiri's recommendation ...
Troy, in terms of your question about Colorado coverage. IIRC, the roads were shown pretty well. I guess if you wanted, you/I could go back and open up the route and track files and see how close they match. I did some on-the-fly routing so deviations did occur, but they would be obvious as the differences would be great.
To all MapSource users: be sure to keep your poduct up to date WRT to updates.
Help / Check For Software Updates
Safiri Mike
Current: 01 F650-GSDakar-RWB; 02 EXC-453 (orig. MXC 400); 05 EXC-450 ; 13 CRF-250L; 17 CRF-125FB; 06 KLX-110 (132); 02 TTR-125L
Gone and missed (but no regrets): 01 LC4E-400-Grey
Gone and not missed: 73 AT3, 85 K100RS
Current: 01 F650-GSDakar-RWB; 02 EXC-453 (orig. MXC 400); 05 EXC-450 ; 13 CRF-250L; 17 CRF-125FB; 06 KLX-110 (132); 02 TTR-125L
Gone and missed (but no regrets): 01 LC4E-400-Grey
Gone and not missed: 73 AT3, 85 K100RS
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ajayhawkfan
- Posts: 1451
- Joined: 25 Jan 2007 18:51
- Photo URL: http://picasaweb.google.com/ajayhawkfan
- Location: Kansas City, MO
- Contact:
What I recall, I recieved "trip and waypoint manager" with the maping programs. I only downloaded the maps.troy wrote:ajayhawkfan,
I was trying to checkout some of your tips, but apparently I don't have the same software you do. You mention "City Navigator" and a Routing tab. I don't have a product named City Navigator. The installed product I have calls itself simply "MapSource" although I swear the CD is titled "Trip & Waypoint Manager". I dug around and found that I do not have the Routing tab or the features you explained...they sound like good features.
The routing is not advalible if you only have TOPO maps from Garmin. I believe you must have City Navigator or the earlier software in order for it to work.
Our offices are not far apart. Lets get together for lunch soon and I'll bring my laptop and show you how it works.
Eddie
Rock Chalk Jayhawk, KU!!!
R1200 GS Adventure '15
R1200 GS Adventure '15