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I like to think outside the box. Some have accused me of not being aware there even is a box. I've longed for great riding areas closer to the Kansas City metro. There are a few options available within 2.5 hours, but all of these have become eroded rock gardens thanks to quads. (We love our quad-riding brothers, but the sheer number of them is more than the small trail systems effectively sustain. I blame this more on the lack of riding areas than on the quads.)

I've occasionally seen 40+ acres for sale and wished I could buy the land to enjoy riding my own trails. I wonder if any of you ever have this thought? Strength in numbers! We could pool our resources to make a larger land purchase. So the questions are many, but primarily I wonder:

• How much land do you need?
• How far away is too far to be useful?

The 20 or so folks who've enjoyed riding bird man's trails lately realize you don't need many acres to have a LOT of trail riding fun! Trails can criss-cross and wind around to create a lot of trail per acre.

A good friend, who may reveal himself in this thread, recently mentioned 170 heavily wooded acres with a creek for $1,200/acre. That is $204,000 or $4,080 each for 50 people. That land would be about an hour and 45 minutes from the KC metro.

For comparison:

• Perry Lake ATV is about 140 acres and only 45 minutes away (depending where in the metro you are of course)
• School Creek ORV is supposedly about 300 acres and about 2.5 hours away.

Both are crowded with ATVs and the trails are wallowed out from quads.

Personally, I would want our private land to be mostly single-track motorcycle trails. I would not be opposed to some easy quad trails for the moms & dads wanting to tote small children around. I've never cut trail in heavy woods. How much work is it? As I understand, you do it in the winter when the forest is not overgrown. Then it's a matter of enough motorcycles using the trails to keep them burned in and occasionally trimming trees back. A lot of work, though!

To actually implement a plan like this would need a lot of legal details fleshed out. Do you set it up as an REIT? I believe the "Chicken Ranch" is setup as some kind of agricultural use because they do have a hay field, and this keeps their taxes low. What are the rules for who can actually ride there? Can owners invite anyone they want any time they want? How do we handle disputes? That is all secondary to the original idea. Is this something any of you would consider?

Consider that just owning land does not mean you can ride dirt bikes regularly on it. If you have neighbors, their complaints can shut you down or end up with you in court. So you need land that is relatively secluded.

troy wrote:
A good friend, who may reveal himself in this thread, recently mentioned 170 heavily wooded acres with a creek for $1,200/acre. That is $204,000 or $4,080 each for 50 people. That land would be about an hour and 45 minutes from the KC metro.

I want to know about that land. Cheapest price I have seen lately.

KS Rocks Park is in Bourbon County, KS. It is run by a 4 WD club in KC. I understand they ended up in Bourbon County because of zoning rules and regulations in counties closer to KC. Forming a group to buy land for riding might run into the same problems. I also know KS Rocks is not very popular with their neighbors (of which I am one) but there was nothing that we could do because there is no zoning in the county.

ajayhawkfan wrote:I also know KS Rocks is not very popular with their neighbors (of which I am one) but there was nothing that we could do because there is no zoning in the county.

Right. And you all could eventually pressure for zoning laws that basically outlaw what they are doing and all their money and effort will have been wasted save the time they did get to use the property. I would be royally pissed if I shelled out $50K and spent 100 hours cutting trail and then was told "you can't ride your motorcycle on your land".

At least you guys already lived there when they started that activity. My favorite is the people who moved in around the JoCo airport then wanted to shut it down because of airplane noise. Selfish morons.

troy wrote:

ajayhawkfan wrote:I also know KS Rocks is not very popular with their neighbors (of which I am one) but there was nothing that we could do because there is no zoning in the county.

Right. And you all could eventually pressure for zoning laws that basically outlaw what they are doing and all their money and effort will have been wasted save the time they did get to use the property. I would be royally pissed if I shelled out $50K and spent 100 hours cutting trail and then was told "you can't ride your motorcycle on your land".

At least you guys already lived there when they started that activity. My favorite is the people who moved in around the JoCo airport then wanted to shut it down because of airplane noise. Selfish morons.

If zoning came to BB county they would be grandfathered in so nothing can be done.

What about renting? I would think that a lot of ranchers would like to make a little bit extra money just for a few trails granted you can provide them with some guarantees that they would not be liable for anything, that traffic will stay on trails agreed upon with said rancher, and that people will be responsible user of the trails....

just a thought

Luc is on the right track here. This has been done in the past. There used to be an area just south of Wolcott (west of Wyandotte County Lake) that was used by a group of enduro riders. Not sure who owned the land or how the arrangement was set up. If an agreement could be reached between land owner and renting party providing compensation and waiver of liability the big issues would be addressed. Otherwise, controlling who would get to ride there, when would riding be allowed and how would access be granted would, I believe, be the responsibility of the renting party. Personally, I would have no problem with a small monthly payment to have access to an "exclusive" riding area...............

I agree 100% with what Luc posted and Phil echoed. I've had this conversation off-line with folks including land owners. Granted, it was a small subset, but these folks were not willing to lease their land for off-road motorcycling.

It has been frustrating for me because the parts of the land we need are the parts the farmers don't need! The woods along the creeks and such can't be tilled or hayed. It is common practice for farmers to lease their land to hunters, so it's not like land owners are completely adverse to having strangers on their land and the liability issues involved. I continue to believe it's an education thing. I think they assume we'll tear up the land, but a singletrack motorcycle trail ridden by a relatively small group of riders on a regular basis is sustainable and the land will recover when we go away.

I think many hunters assume motorcycles will scare away the deer. I don't know hunting, but I do know that motorcycles and motorcycle trails do not scare away deer. If anything, they oddly seem to attract them.

I think the trails on bird man's land are proof of the concept. He has 200 acres there and we only ride on a tiny percentage of the land--the woods along the creek where he can't farm anyway. His game cameras show the deer using the trails daily.

Maybe we can develop a proposal that presents a clear plan to make a land owner comfortable with the idea. How do we find land owners? Do we contact land owners who advertise hunting leases?

Also consider the amount of work required to cut trails and the possibility you would not be able to renew the lease the next year.

I think it should be pretty easy.
-First emphasize that it is a yearly lease and if it does not work for landowner then the next year the renter is out and that therefore it becomes the responsibility of the renting group to behave itself and wean out any bad apples if there are any.
- Second it needs to be conveyed that this place is not going to look like Mildford or Randolph with big scars in the terrain from motor use
- Third, landowner has final say in where trails can and cannot go

In my opinion trails will have to be less dense than most of the places where we typically ride out so that keeps landowner happy. Do not think that a path in a pasture cannot be fun too. Two days ago I actually went out and rode the easy trail I made for Léonce and I was amazed at how much fun I had, it is fun to be turning at speed testing the limit of grip and knowing that you will not end up in a tree if you lose the front end etc...

I actually use most of our property to make a trail on, even our hay meadow, my thought is that I will lose let's say 2ft on 1 mile, that is not that many acres of producing dirt... and at the end I do not expect it to look too too bad.

In Indiana we had 7 acres of pasture and I had made a .8 miles trail and you could barely tell it was there





I have been involved quite a bit in building trails, horse, MTB etc... One of the key rule they preach to you is "keep people on the trail and water of the trail" I think that it applies for motorcycle trails as well. That means recognize that if you know that people will want to go somewhere, you'd better make a trail that goes there and build the trail having in mind erosion issues and water drainage issue as if you make a trail where water does not drain it will take longer before somebody can get back on it without creating a mess.

As far as how long it takes to build it, it is not that bad, I think I have a little bit over 2.5 miles on 40 acres and I probably could have done it in a couple of day if I had stayed on it solid. I did just what bird man did, a small tractor and a bush hog and on we go. If you guys do something I can come and help with my equipment.

As a landowner, right or wrong I will want people to stay on the trails I built (agreed upon location). This is where I am okay with it having no grass etc. I will monitor those places and if in the future I think that one needs to be rerouted for erosion or aestetic issues I will do so. I have also accepted that I will not have 10 miles of trails which I probably could, but only 2.5

just my .02

There is a balance of ground condition to miles of trail to number of riders. If 1,000 riders ride every day on 3 miles of trail, of course that trail is going to get destroyed! But where is that limit/balance?

The last 2 weekends, we've had about 20 riders on bird man's trails. His soft dirt trails burn in easy and fast. After just 2 days of riding, you can definitely see the difference in the trails. It was a burn-in they needed. I do wonder, though, if 20 people rode there most every weekend, would those trails become a rutted, eroded mess? My guess is that some of them--the ones on the steeper slopes--would become rutted. That is what you want to avoid. In the scope of "riding areas", the land we ride on at bird man's is a relatively small parcel of land with about 5 miles of trail we wind around.

I have to think 100 acres of mostly timber could have many miles of trails and easily support a private club of say no more than 50 members and their families. The reality is that many people simply won't make it out to ride very often--it's not like 50+ motorcycles would be hitting the trails every week.

I like the lease option because it seems efficient--there is a lot of farm land like bird man's where 10 to 20% of the land is not good for farming but perfect for trail riding. We could offer those land owners a way to monetize that otherwise unused land. I grew up on a farm in the country. To put it bluntly, country folk don't trust city folk and don't want them stinking up the place. That might be the biggest obstacle.

Back to the idea of buying land. Assume you are presented with this opportunity:

We want you to be part of a private riding club. We have 160 interesting, wooded acres full of singletrack trails 90 minutes from the metro. It is $1,000 initial investment and $250 annually, making you a 1% owner of the land eligible to take part in any future profit the land might produce. By the way, we are just now purchasing the land and expect you to come help cut trails! Oh, and you need to sign your life away promising never to sue the club. The land will feature miles of technical singletrack as well as lots of easy sections and trails suitable for small children and people learning to ride.

What do you do? (For comparison, there is a successful club in Atchison County with 200 excellent acres of trails. It is $250 to join and $300 annually. I don't think that makes you an owner. Membership is full and invite only when slots open, which rarely happens.)

Assuming no more than $4K/acre, $400K could buy 100 to 200 acres. (Obviously this price means getting out of the metro at least an hour.)

Scenario #1: Members: 100 Initial Investment: $1,000 Annual Due: $250 -------------------------------------- Total Annual Dues: $25,000 Property Purchase Price: $400,000 25% down: -100,000 Mortgage Amount: $300,000 Interest: 6% Term: 30 years -------------------------------------- Monthly Mortgage Payment: $1,800 x12 (annual): $21,600 -------------------------------------- Left to pay taxes, etc.: $3,400

So after collecting member dues and paying the mortgage, at the end of the year you have $3,400 left to pay taxes, attorney fees, etc. Not quite enough....can we sell mineral rights, let someone drill for oil, allow cattle on the land, lease the appropriate parts to a farmer for hay/crops?

If we own the land and enough members are interested in hunting, we could have designated hunting days or weeks.

I've got 10 acres in Michigan for sale. Is that close to KC? It is within 7 miles of the 3700 mile Michigan offroad trail system.

Cheers,

MrHix

My thoughts on it are if it was going to be 1.75+ hours from the city then it is almost as convienent to just head to Chadwick which is about 2.5 hours from me. That being said I have several places local I can ride. Not sure what my dad would think but he has several hundred acres right outside of Oak Grove he might be willing to rent to a club as long as the liability was squared away. If it wasn't to much of a headache for him and someone knows how the liability angle all works with other clubs that lease land I could ask. Lots of woods and a creek. I always thought it would be nice place to cut some trails. I think he has someone farm part of it but as you can see from the picture most of it is woods. This is about 30 miles east of downtown right off I-70. They did sell 20 acres in the middle of it years ago to some friends so he would probably want them to ok it as well.
Jim

I pretty much agree with the 90 minutes + away thing. Every 10 minutes out diminishes the ROI for me. 90 minutes is still an hour closer to me than School Creek and more than 90 minutes closer than Chadwick. PLUS it would be a limited number of riders on pure singletrack--not a quadtard rock garden.

Your dad's land sounds perfect if those neighbors (including the one in the middle of the property) are cool with 5 to 20 motorcycles running around many weekends.

I like the way forward you propose--let's figure out the most simple way to protect him from all liability. Does anyone here have a connection to an attorney who might have an appropriate specialty? The written agreement for your dad should include that liability protection as well as line out where we cannot create trails and when we can and cannot ride. We need to figure out a max # of members that makes sense to sustain the trails. Too many and we destroy the trails and tick off dad and neighbors.

As for who gets to ride, I don't know if a legal organization is necessary--the attorney can help us with that. It would clearly be only those invited, agree to abide by the rules, have signed the agreement/waiver, and paid their fair share of the lease.

20 people x $250 = $5,000. How much money would your dad want for an annual lease allowing no more than 30 riders at a time building and riding trails? What are folks willing to pay for this privilege? For me, no more than $500 annually, but for that, I'd want a lot of great trails.

My 2 cents.

I believe a major problem in leasing property is reputation of dirt bikes. Their reputation is that they are loud and do destroy the environment. I believe overcoming those two obstacles will be very difficult. Over coming liability concerns would be another.

I would be as friendly as any land owner in regards to motorcycles yet I'm part of the group that is fighting KS Rocks to prevent them from expanding to allow motorcycles. We are doing that because we don't want to deal with the additional noise from motorcycles that is both annoying and can be unsettling to cattle along adjoining property. Our experience with the rock crawlers has been bad enough.

I have also had to deal with 4 wheelers/motorcycles/atvs that knowingly crossed property lines. After over a year of asking them to stop I had to contact the sheriff. Years later, my land is still healing from the scars they caused.

I have no problem with owners riding and inviting people to ride, like I do on my personal property. The reason is because it does not happen all the time. However I would never consider renting to a group because of the environmental damage that many riders would cause and even if I could be guaranteed there would be no damage I would not because of the possible annoyance that it would cause my neighbors.

I mentioned to one of my neighbors that I was planning of having a group down this spring to have an off road riding class. It raised a huge concern because of a past bad experience they had with motorcycles at a place they worked. According to them, the neighboring property sold to a motorcycle club and the noise stressed the horses to the point many lost foals.

I know I'm a wet blanket in regards to leasing property as a group. I'm not saying it can't be done only that I believe it will be difficult to find a land owner willing to do it.

Eddy makes a lot of good points!

Just being aware of what you are up against is probably very important as far as approaching potential landowners. At the end of the day how dependable of a group on all aspects is going to do it or break it long term. Having a tie to landowner through somebody in the group is probably pretty important. Whichever way you go you need to plan time for trail maintenance even once it is cleared and maybe allocate some $ to it so that you can take care of the place like if you owned it. Ideally you'd have 4 or 5 places you can ride at and take turns so that you do not ear down the trails too fast and respect the neighbors if neighbors are not so much bike lovers, I would hope that they could handle a weekend a month.

Fun fun fun!

I am selling my bikes. Its not worth the hassles. From now on, my weekends will be filled with scrapbooking and craft fairs.

troy wrote:I am selling my bikes. Its not worth the hassles. From now on, my weekends will be filled with scrapbooking and craft fairs.

I'll take dib on the 350, you must be selling it cheap this time of the year

troy wrote:I am selling my bikes. Its not worth the hassles. From now on, my weekends will be filled with scrapbooking and craft fairs.

I hope you atgatt while srapbooking, we would not want you to get paper cuts. And don't run with scissors!

gagnaou wrote:

troy wrote:I am selling my bikes. Its not worth the hassles. From now on, my weekends will be filled with scrapbooking and craft fairs.

I'll take dib on the 350, you must be selling it cheap this time of the year

I'll take your 800. I'm sure I could find a use for it.

Think the liability issue has stopped this in its tracks for man or at least they used it for an excuse...supposedly that is why they closed Lake City was Jackson County wanted the guy to have big time (expensive) liability insurance. I know a guy who is a member of a club that has some land somewhere close. I may give him a call.

Sorry! should have realized that this subj had already gotten into on another thread.