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I guess you could say I started my dualsport experience when I was 20 years old. I had a 1974 Kawasaki F11 250 enduro. (A street-legal "dirt" bike.) I'd never heard the term "dualsport", and I'm not sure that term existed then. I'd ride it everywhere during the week, then enjoy backroads, the farm, and any trails I could find on weekends.

Then one day, it just stopped running and never ran again. (For me anyway.) Except for what was apparently an electrical issue, she was in beautiful condition, and I let her go for $100.

Skip ahead to August 2005. The hunger was back stronger than ever. My brother and I purchased KLR650's to ride with the http://www.backroadstouring.com gang. We attended our first real off-road trail adventure at R.L. Lemke's Fall Color Tour in Arkansas' Ozark National Forest. I was in love! This was the kind of riding I wanted to do more than anything else.

However, I still needed/wanted a street-legal machine to ride backroads. So a pure dirt-bike was not an option. Budget demanded one bike to fit the bill.

That's when I met the DR350SE. Mine is a 99--the last year they made them. Purchased in November 2005 with 6,700 miles, she now has almost 14,000 miles! A lot of that has been off-road, too. So you could say I've been getting my money out of her.

Yesterday I returned home from what was supposed to be a 3 day Chadwick, MO trail ride. On Sat morning, I tweaked my already badly-sprained right ankle. I know--stupid to even try to go riding an area as rugged as Chadwick. 11 riders. I was the only non-KTM machine. With the exception of a 525exc, they were all riding 250 or 300cc race-ready machines with more farkles than I want to afford. Suffice it to say, I had brought a plastic knife to a machine-gun fight. These guys all race hare-scrambles on weekends. I was out of my league for sure. Don't get me wrong, I've got adequate skills--and even on my heavier, less powerful DR350, I can ride most any of the marked trails at Chadwick (there is some hairy stuff in there). I just can't do it at 30 MPH while riding a wheelie!

I have a week-long adventure planned for July that involves riding the famous Rainbow Trail in the Rockies. Some of this trail is single-track. After riding those other machines---KTM 525exc, Husky TE510, KTM400, etc, I really don't find them any less-comfortable than my DR350. The DR350 is not what you'd call a comfy, road machine! So now I'm thinking--why not trade for a more high-performance machine. Other than money, what would I be giving up? The DR350 has proven to be EXTREMELY reliable. However, if it does break, it's not a machine that can swap parts with the other guys on the trail.

So I'm doing what I should not--I am lusting new motorcycles. So I'm checking out the 2007 Husqvarna models. My weakness right now is the TE450 and TE510.
http://www.husqvarnausa.com/

Question...the TE510 weighs one lb more than the TE450. They appear to be identical. What is the difference other than obviously another 61cc of displacement? Why would a person purchase one over the other?


Please reply and simply tell me "keep the DR350". That's what my sanity and budget demand!

First off, sorry to read that you didn't get the full 3 days in. . On the bright side, you don't have broken ribs.

As to engine size... Here goes my limited knowledge:

More power is not always a good thing. And the way power is delivered is not equal across engines. Some engines will behave like a 2-stroke, with no power becoming max power over a short rpm range. Easy to lose control. Tracy made that differentiation between his Honda inline 4 cylinder 929 and his BMW R Boxer (2-cylinder). The 929 was a more difficult machine to ride in the paved twisties because the power came on strong and suddenly. Not good if you are in the midst of a turn near the limit of traction. The BMW was much smoother.

Look at the bore x stroke of an engine. The shorter the stroke, the quicker the bike will rev up (assuming others things like piston weight, etc are equal) and typically higher red line. Faster acceleration, etc.

Lots of LC4 riders will tell you that the LC4-400 ~feels~ a lot lighter than the 640 on tight stuff. The bikes weigh the same. Literally, the same. The difference is that the 400 has less power and a much shorter stroke. Less power so you don't lose control, shorter stroke so it revs up with less resistance (rotational inertia, rotational momentum, rotational kinetic energy) and it revs a bit higher.

You have mentioned that you want a bike that you can ride to Wichita. The larger displacement machine would do better and will probably be geared a bit higher so your rpm's aren't as high (less strain, less vibe). But, you could ride a DRZ400 or my LC4-400 to Wichita so long as you didn't want to ride at 80 mph all day long. However, a LC4-640 (what I am familiar with) would do it better. Out in CO last summer we hightailed it to Denver for approx. 200 miles at 70-75 mph at the end of our trip. My 400 did just fine.

TANSTAAFL = There aint no such thing as a free lunch. No bike does everything well. There are always tradeoffs.

So as you try to decide btw the 410 and 510 ... good luck.

BTW, ask Sean. He rides a 400 RFS doesn't he? Why didn't he get a 525? I assume the weight btw the two is almost identical. I know the stroke length plays into the decision btw a 400 and 450 RFS.

Thanks, Mike. I did not know to look at stroke length. The 510 has a stroke that is 7mm longer than the 450. I'm still not sure exactly how that is going to change the way the bike feels or acts. I do understand how the overall bigger area of the cylinder makes a bigger boom!

As for a bike I can occasionally commute between KC and Wichita, on, I still think that needs to be a second bike. This time around, I'm not exactly looking for the best compromise between off-road and on road. I'm looking for a light off-road machine that is street-legal or can be made street-legal while being at least capable of running 60MPH for say 25 miles of pavement if needed.

So now you've really got me wanting to understand the bore vs stroke performance. So compare a Husky TE450 with say a Yamaha WR450F.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/produ ... specs.aspx

Husky TE450 449cc 4-stroke
97mm Bore x 60.76mm Stroke
12.9:1 compression ratio

Yamaha WR459F 449cc 4-stroke
95mm Bore x 63.4mm Stroke
11:1 compression ratio

So, the Husky, with the shorter stroke, may rev up faster? Thus delivering "quicker" power, but at the cost of that power being more "explosive" and thus possibly harder to manage?

I think my trail-riding has taught me that having an engine that delivers smooth, low-end power for tractoring up steep hills while bouncing off rocks is a good thing. My DR350 definitely has that--I love it. What it is missing is the ability to loft the front wheel at will--say to avoid being slapped down by a washout cutting across the trail.

Those of you who know me (and safiri does for sure), know that I value reliability and economy. Perhaps a trusty old DRZ400 modded for extra power is all I really need. That would get me a machine that is better supported in the after-market world, too. The DRZ, though, has a dry weight that is 40 lbs heavier than the TE450, TE510, 450EXC, or 525EXC. I'd think a TE450 with all the extra protective gear would still be lighter than a stock DRZ400. It costs new about $1,800 more, too.

DRZ400 and KTM450EXC both have an 11:1 compression ratio. TE450 is 12.9:1. What does that really mean to me?

The DRZ400 only has 5 gears while the KTMs and Huskys have 6. It depends on the gearing of course, but I know for a fact that a 525 can cruise 70 MPH at relatively low RPM. A DRZ400, after being geared down to be better for trails, has to scream to do 65MPH. I was riding my KLR650 with a guy riding a brand new 525EXC. We swapped bikes for a bit then hit a few miles of highway. I expected this little dirt bike to really suck on the pavement at higher speeds. With a few throttle twists and a couple gears later, I was flying down the road at 65MPH. Then I realized it had another gear to go! I kicked it up to 6th gear and 70MPH and watched the RPMs settled down to a comfortable cruise. It ticked me off--this amazingly powerful dirtbike could cruise the highway at lower RPM than my KLR650!

I know the "what bike" discussion has gone on for ages, but I'm not just looking for opinions here---every bike truly is a compromise if you want to do more than one style of riding with it. I'm looking to better understand the science behind the numbers I always see in the specifications so when I make model decisions, I can apply those numbers to my riding styles and preferences.

Pretty sure that 12.9:1 is going to require premium gasoline to avoid knocking. $0.20 per gallon extra isn't a high price to pay for the extra power. 11:1 recommends premium, but you can get away with regular octane.

Is the Yamaha street legal out of the box? I don't think it is. The Huskies and KTMs are. Lots of states are making DSing a bike next to impossible unless it comes as factory legal.

6 gears is really nice. I keep reaching for a 6th gear on my KTM and on my F650. Neither has one. (The KTM RFS bikes have 6, the LC4s have 5.) The 6th makes highway lots more enjoyable (while still allowing first gear to be low enough to be usable).

For the price difference that I remember, this orange rider would seriously consider a Husky.

As to stroke length ... who has ridden both types and can address that? I have a little knowledge which is enough to get me into trouble.

Take care,
Mike

Correct--the Yamaha WR450F is not street-legal. I've never ridden one, but for some reason, I like that machine...keep wishing it was street-legal. I hear Bumper has a new one...maybe he'll let me know what he thinks of it.

I'm not sure why Husky went away from the yellow color scheme, but I love the new red/white colors for 2007.

Ignorance is bliss. This is true with motorcycles as with most everything else in life. I could not be more satisfied with my DR350.....until I spend time around higher-performance machines. Especially on this last ride, I watched 10 guys in front of me loft over whoops sections at high speed while I was forced to lock up the brakes to slow down in time to roll slowly over the whoops knowing that if I hit them at speed I'll get the crap kicked out of me. Likewise with other obstacles--I watch the other riders simply twist the throttle, lift the front wheel and power over obstacles. I on the other hand have to slow down enough to bump the obstacle safely with my front wheel then power over it...not to mention the steering stabilizers the other guys are running with, etc.

I think what I really should do is stop riding with guys who have such fancy machines.

Guys seem to LOVE the TE450. Of course you can find a favorable review for any bike.
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showth ... p?t=150038

Mark "Big Dog" Sampson recently did a big Baja ride. He rode his TE610 and his buddy was on a KTM525. I have Big Dog's excellent video cam footage from the trip. He points out the number of times the KTM RXC is being wrenched on while he gets his Husky tools out only to find there is nothing to work on. It just didn't need anything.
http://bigdogadventures.com/Baja01%202007.htm
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209147

Don't mistake this for a "Husky is better than KTM" thread. Not at all. In fact, when I hear people talk about KTMs requiring a lot of maintenance, I think of Safiri's 400 and how little he has had to do that bike even though he has beaten it to heck and back.

Hey Troy if you want to experience the bore/stroke debate first hand come over tomorrow and I will let you ride the 620 and then put you on the 400. There is a slite weight diff because the 620 is electric start. Other than that you can "feel" instead of have someone tell you the difference. Give me a call I will be around all day prepping to depart for the dunes on Wednesday. Oh and I was at Chadwick last weekend

816-898-2697 Caleb

The Husky's sound nice but what would make me a little leery is parts availability. That would make me lean more towards a ktm.
For my situation my antiquated xrl is fine. Theoretically higher compression ratios mean more performance with the trade off of shorter engine life.
I think the 525 and the 450 share the same bottom end, so in the interest of longevity that might bias me toward the 450. DK

That would be great, Caleb. However, with my current injuries, I need to stay off the bikes for awhile--especially unfamiliar machines. I do want to take you up on the offer later, though.

What dunes you going to? Oklahoma?

katbeanz wrote:The Husky's sound nice but what would make me a little leery is parts availability. That would make me lean more towards a ktm.

Good point on engine longevity. I'm not sure parts availability is an issue. I can ask Daryl again, but from what I understand, parts are readily available--that is, Husky is making the parts. Sure, you don't have 10 dealers in the KC area stocking parts, so you rely on having parts shipped. I'm used to this--whenever I need a part for my DR350, it has to be ordered anyway.

hey man good to see you are thinking of other bikes! Not that the DR is not good and you have gotten alot of fun out of it. But as you know, it is not the best for woods riding.

You're right the 'what bike do I get' topic is about he most open ended question ever, on bike boards. You are already thinking logically, like I know you would.

I'd suggest you drop the street legal requirement if you are going to have two bikes. Especially the '25 miles of pavement' capability. You can make a pure enduro street legal but would not want to be pressed into flogging it 25 miles.

All I can say is beg rides on tons of different bikes and form your own opinions. You are welcome to ride my DRZ and KTM anytime. One is a nice soft butter knife and the other is an electric meat carver... no comparison. I like them both for different situations.

OK...so I need at least 3 bikes. A pure dirt bike for when I'm riding strictly within an approved off-road area. Another bike for when I'm doing a forest road and ATV trail mix where street-legal is required, and a third bike for road trips. Yikes. Budget is not going to allow that. This is why I'm willing (I think) to compromise on the pure dirt bike a little. That's what the DR350 was...and now I'm wanting to move closer to the dirt bike side of the scale and willing to give up even more highway capability.

The thing is, a bike like a KTM525 or TE450/510 is both a move towards a better dirt bike AND more capable of cruising 65MPH down pavement (thanks to that 6th gear). I do not ever plan to do true motocross style riding---I'm not going to be triple jumping and flying 30 feet over table tops. But darnit, I want to be able to loft the front wheel when I twist the throttle and safely land some small jumps. Is that too much to ask?!

Some of you may be seeing a pattern forming, though. 18 months ago, a KLR650 was about perfect. Then I needed something more agile in the woods, so a DR350 was perfect, after a year, I now want something even more dirt-worthy. Sure....another year, and I'll be riding a real motocross racer. When will it ever just be good enough for me?! Why can't I just love the one I'm with?!

Troy,

Don't forget the KTM 450 RFS. It is the second of the two RFS bikes KTM is bringing in to the US as street legal. (I am pretty sure it is the 450 .. it could be the 400 but I don't think it is.)

From my riding with you, knowing your garage size, knowing that a new addition is about to put a stress on the pocketbook and time available ... these are what I would think are your needs (worth what you are paying for them ... nada):

- 1 bike that

- is street legal when bought. You may need to add the turn signals, but the title says "on-road use" or whatever. I have ~heard~ that KS and MO are not easy when it comes to DSing an off-road bike. If somebody has recent experience that negates this, then please let us know.

- can do National Forest trails (Ozark, Chadwick, Colorado) comfortably (loft front wheel, power out, light, nimble ...)

(not necessarily excellently, as that would be a lightweight 2-stroke ... to quote a guy on KTMTalk ... "my buddy [riding a 2-stroke supermoto on the street] got sick of smelling like a weedeater")

- can haul butt on KS and MO gravel roads

- doesn't need to be wrenched on after every ride, but that does have local availablility and service (if needed). Obviously internet parts are always available, just a few days away. My view on Husky: they are going to make a comeback due to their street legal offerings.

- can handle pavement, even turnpike / interstate (70 - 75 mph comfortably), btw KC and Wichita. But not a cruiser that you would ride pavement with from here to California.

With those in mind ...
Either of the Huskies or KTMs would be my choice. I doubt you can go wrong btw either of the four ... find out why people would choose the smaller over the larger.

BTW, the Husky 610 is an entirely different motor than the 5xx and 4xx. Kind of like the KTM LC4 vs. RFS.

As to maintenance on the four ... you are going to have to change the oil more often as they carry less. Valve adjustments are recommended, but my understanding (at least on the RFS bikes) is that unless you flog the RPM, the valves stay set pretty well. The Huskies use a shim and bucket valve adjustment, not a set screw. Not sure on the RFS. To change shims on a bucket arrrangement on my F650 requires special tools or partial disassembly of the valve train. I assume the Husky is similar. Adjusting valves on a set screw type requires a screwdriver and/or a couple of wrenches. Note that I have this setup on my F and am not complaining.

Given your street requirement, forget a 2t. The fuel range is not workable unless you get a humongous tank, then there is the premixing on the fly thing. Most importantly, off road 2t do *not* do well on extended freeway runs. They are not designed for that, a 4t is much better for this. They need regular bursts of throttle to get the oil (in the fuel natch) required for proper lubrication throught the top and bottom end. After 10 miles you be thinking 'what the hell am I doing?'

I think you are OK on the 4t KTM or Huskys for all of your requirements Except the KC to Witchita runs. That is a long time to run one of those mid performance 4t bikes at close to top speed on more than a *very* occasional basis. I suppose they could do it, I am just saying I wouldn't if I had one. Now a DRZ? That's a farm implement, yes I would do it with that.

In my mind, I rank 4t performance levels (and maintenance requirements) thusly :

low=DRZ etc
mid= KTM RFS
high CRF, SXF, KXF etc


Remember too your knobbies are not gonna wear well, but you know that already.

SO orange or red/white? I have a soft spot for Husky so pick that! I have read the new KTMs are so plugged up for sound/emissions reasons that there is alot of heat retained in the motor, which causes a propensity to boil over. They dont have catch bottle so you lose the coolant. (what I've read).

Big cc or little? I am partial to smaller cc bikes, my 300 notwithstanding. So I would pick a 450 or even KTM 400. They act lighter and more flickable even though they weigh the same. If you do more road stuff the bigger motor obvisously would be preferable.

You can easily switch cs sprockets to move the gearing envelope quickly when going from street/DS runs to pure off road.

prediction: at some point Troy will break down and have > 1 bike. Compromise will not be sufficient.

Mike, what models are the KTM "RFS" bikes?
http://www.ktmusa.com/Models.6.20.html

KTM has a great fold out poster showing models .. you can pick one up free at LetKo.

These (top two) are the street legal RFS bikes: http://www.ktmusa.com/Offroad-Competiti ... 18.20.html

safiri wrote:These (top two) are the street legal RFS bikes: http://www.ktmusa.com/Offroad-Competiti ... 18.20.html

So what does "RFS" mean? I'm assuming the engine type as opposed to the "LC4"? I don't see "RFS" anywhere on the KTM website.

I need to end this discussion--I'm only torturing myself! I don't have the cash to buy a new $7K bike, and I won't finance a toy. No matter how I try to justify it, a new bike is a toy. So I need to just suck it up, ride my DR350, and like it.

Isn't that Husky TE450 a sexy, STREET-LEGAL beast?


Maybe I'll find a used-up, older-model, cheap motocross bike to play in the woods on--to get this out of my system. I'll have to take the DR350 to Colorado, though, because that ride requires a street-legal machine. She's good for it.

Troy, you need a big bike so you can cruse with me. On Saturday, I road gravel and minor highways to Council Grove and stayed the night, picking up 4 very nice caches along the way. One Sunday I took grave to Cottonwood Falls and then Scenic 177 to Cassoday for "First Sunday". (I saw more bikes of more types types then I have ever seen at one place.) Leaving Cassoday, I left and road gravel, low and no maintenance roads to Emporia. Picking up 2 caches Near Texaco Hill. In Emporia I hiked a little over a mile to grab one cache. I needed to streach my leg at that point. From Emporia I road to Osage City on black top and picked up US 56 until Baldwin City. At Baldwin City I took gravel road until I got to KC picking up a few caches here and there.

It was a wonderful weekend trip. I road over 400 miles about a a third gravel, a third minor black top roads and a third highway.

ajayhawkfan wrote:Troy, you need a big bike so you can cruse with me...It was a wonderful weekend trip. I road over 400 miles about a a third gravel, a third minor black top roads and a third highway.

Sounds great! You are right--I do need a big bike. I need 3 bikes, actually!